Scutum detailing

[Magnus]

So best might be to just choose a pattern that fits best with the other gear and doesn't advertise me as part of a group that I don't march with.

You are right.. it is best to use your own pattern unless you actually are a member of a club.

No sense to causing those kind of ripples.

That's the most rediculous thing I've heard today...lol...are you saying that reenactment legions are copyrighting ancient emblems now? Not to mention there are a fixed number of legit patterns out there!

Steve, go ahead and use whatever pattern you want. Heck, I'll even send you mine as pdf's if you want. And if anyone gives you grief about it, send them my way. 8)

[Robert Vermaat]

So best might be to just choose a pattern that fits best with the other gear and doesn't advertise me as part of a group that I don't march with.

You are right.. it is best to use your own pattern unless you actually are a member of a club.
No sense to causing those kind of ripples.

That's the most rediculous thing I've heard today...lol...are you saying that reenactment legions are copyrighting ancient emblems now? Not to mention there are a fixed number of legit patterns out there!
Steve, go ahead and use whatever pattern you want.

Agreed! If that 'causes any ripples' then those groups should take a good look at what they are doing! Not that i expect any troubles - so you copy what you wnat, that's what research is for.

[Tarbicus]

Here's a photo of the umbo I mentioned. The dome headed nail is on the upper right.
[url:1n2cpp77]http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i311/tarbicus/boss1a.jpg?t=1166611578[/url]

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

So best might be to just choose a pattern that fits best with the other gear and doesn't advertise me as part of a group that I don't march with.

You are right.. it is best to use your own pattern unless you actually are a member of a club.
No sense to causing those kind of ripples.

That's the most rediculous thing I've heard today...lol...are you saying that reenactment legions are copyrighting ancient emblems now? Not to mention there are a fixed number of legit patterns out there!
Steve, go ahead and use whatever pattern you want.

Agreed! If that 'causes any ripples' then those groups should take a good look at what they are doing! Not that i expect any troubles - so you copy what you wnat, that's what research is for.

Yes, this is supposed to be re-enactment of ancient times, not "wanna be in my gang..... " I suppose If I want to do a Caesarian reproduction/impression, I have to ask permission? As a big fan of Caesars, and his Legions, I will have a hard time getting a response from the man with the copyright! :lol:

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Maybe Hibernicus is suggesting that they created their "own" design, and did not copy it directly from an original?

If this is true I can understand why they might want to be the only ones using it.

[Robert Vermaat]

I suppose If I want to do a Caesarian reproduction/impression, I have to ask permission? As a big fan of Caesars, and his Legions, I will have a hard time getting a response from the man with the copyright! :lol:

Hi Byron,

Hib, Matt and I were talking about the possibility that modern re-enactment groups would frown on non-members using a scutum design similar to what they use.. I think that unfortunate, should it happen, because no group should 'monopolise' certain original designs, even more since we know of so few..

As late Romans, Fectio did not use an original design from the Notitia Dignitatum, we invented our own. Now I would not mind if someone copied our shield design, but techmically would could call that an infringement on our rights. We won't, rest assured.
But I also have a shield with the design of the Secunda Britones, which is also used by Britannia, from the UK.

[Hibernicus]

No one knows what the historic Legio IX Hispana's device looks like

We have invented our own device and its protected by Law.

Any use of that would be an infringement.

Besides, its easy enough to join Legio IX and get formal permission to use and display the device.

[caiusbeerquitius]

We have invented our own device and its protected by Law.

Do you mean this one?

[Robert Vermaat]

No one knows what the historic Legio IX Hispana's device looks like
We have invented our own device and its protected by Law.
Any use of that would be an infringement.

OK, fair 'nuf.

But if someone would use a wing with one or two less feathers, it would no longer be Legio IX Hispana's design, right? :wink:

[Steve Schonberger]

What scutum patterns are known? Somewhere I found a site with a bunch of photographs of Trajan's Column, but they didn't focus on the patterns so much as overall scenes.

As far as I've been able to figure out from looking around, few or no actual scutum designs are both known and specifically identified with their legions. Is that correct?


Thanks to all for the answers on attaching the boss and rim.

I think I'll go with the copper rivets to attach the boss, since I already have a bag of them. (I had no idea that nails would also be historically correct. That original is quite a cool thing to have.) I didn't find any hint of concentric rings on the outside, although there were some on the underside. I smacked them with a hammer to round them off a little, and to give a more hand-made look, then ground them smoother with sandpaper (easier than a file).

I'll look for copper roofing nails for the rim. Since both the rim and boss are brass, and I'll use copper to attach the boss, it seems like it would be prettier if the rims are attached with copper too.


For the back bracing, I used cedar bending board, pre-curved in two thin layers. It smelled nice when I bent it to shape.

[Matthew Amt]

Fourth, what methods of decorating the front are reasonable? I'd prefer to avoid painting directly onto the facing fabric (inauthentic but inexpensive quilting cotton that looks a lot like linen), because I don't think my hands are steady enough to avoid ugly slips.

Do some practicing first, on scrap wood or whatever, and then go for it, carefully, and don't worry too much. Paint the whole shield with the background color first. When that's completely dry, use a PENCIL to trace the emblem from whatever patterns you are using. Fill in the color starting with the edges--use the END of the bristles to follow along the edge, not the edge of the brush, since changing the pressure or angle of the brush can make the edges blob out farther than you want! More control with the end. Once the edges are defined (at least part of that section) you can fill in the rest much more quickly. Don't worry too much about perfection, since the Romans certainly didn't. Just do the best you can. If you get slips or mistakes, just wipe the paint off with a damp rag. Any trace remaining you can touch up later with a dab of the background color.

If you plan to have black outlines, do them last, with a narrow brush. Some folks have used "paint markers", but of course I frown on those as evil!

I thought about using the Legio XX design, since the web site has such nice patterns, but I'm not near their geographic area so it wouldn't really fit in if I join a group.

Go ahead! Many other groups and individuals do. Or if you're worried about using the emblem of a group you're not with, use some of the elements in a different combination, using Trajan's Column or a grave stele as your guide. I've tried to make our wing match those on the Column--they're narrower and more curly than what you drew. Don't let the wings get too big, either: many reenactors have them really dominating the whole shield face, whereas on the Column they are smaller (which makes it easier to lay out the whole emblem authentically!).

If you do join a group, of course it makes sense to use their emblem. So maybe just leave it plain red for a while, and practice painting, to see if you end up with a group or not. When individuals happen to turn out with Legio XX now and then, it doesn't bother us at all if their shields don't match ours. We all still look great!

Happy painting!

Matthew

[Hibernicus]

OK, fair 'nuf.

But if someone would use a wing with one or two less feathers, it would no longer be Legio IX Hispana's design, right?

... Valerius/Robert Vermaat

That's kinda tricky. US Law regarding use of similar copyrighted designs, logos and trademarks etc is quite involved. Subtle variations are sometimes too subtle.

Like our corporation's logo? Then join us! Way too easy....

[Steve Schonberger]

I've tried to make our wing match those on the Column--they're narrower and more curly than what you drew.

That makes sense. I based mine on the photograph on this page:
http://www.naturescapes.net/portfolios/ ... ?pos=-1867

Don't let the wings get too big, either: many reenactors have them really dominating the whole shield face, whereas on the Column they are smaller (which makes it easier to lay out the whole emblem authentically!).

I hadn't thought about that. Thanks for pointing it out -- and for the painting advice.

[Caballo]

"We have invented our own device and its protected by Law.
Any use of that would be an infringement. "

Uhhhh.......its supposed to be a hobby and fun? And seriously, are you going to instruct attourneys to prosecute a re-enactor in Moldonia (or wherever) because he uses a similar device?
Mind you, I'm looking forward to the time when Roman re-enactment is so popular that Chinese and Indian factories are churning out thousands of look-alike shields to fill the huge demand from wannabee Romans! :wink:

Cheers

Caballo

[Hibernicus]

Uhhhh.......its supposed to be a hobby and fun?

Caballo

It is both that and for some.... a business.

We have a serious amount of assets invested in what we do.