Hadrian Wall Garrison 4th Century AD (Around 360 AD)

[aitor iriarte]

Robert,
Nobody's perfect!

Aitor

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Great pics Aitor!

[Graham Sumner]

Many sources indicate soldiers wore white tunics with decorations for everyday life duty, and red tunics during battle. Is the information reliable? Did military tunics come with decorations? or was it something a soldier would add on his own?

I am not sure about 'many sources' but I guess you may have read my Roman Military Clothing 2 were I suggested this might be a possibility based on the evidence I had collected.

And the Late Roman army did not wear uniforms with all the men similarly dressed! that's a modernism that we can't seem to get rid off - sure guv'nor, they were all soldiers, right? So they all wear the same sweater, right? I blame Asterix.

_________________


Really Robert? I would find that hard to believe looking at modern Late Roman re-enactors as they all dress very differently and certainly not uniform in any way.

Archaeologically there is a lot of evidence for 'uniform' and I use the term loosely, type of equipment especially in the mid to later empire no doubt with the introduction of the arms factories. I am quite sure they were capable of producing sets of wool tunics in a few standard sizes which is what the sources tell us they did. Now as to colour and decoration.....well we all know that is a different story. The infantrymen and their shield in the illustration above seem to owe more to Dan Shadrake's Britannia rather than Deepeeka!

Graham.

[Robert Vermaat]

Many sources indicate soldiers wore white tunics with decorations for everyday life duty, and red tunics during battle. Is the information reliable? Did military tunics come with decorations? or was it something a soldier would add on his own?

I am not sure about 'many sources' but I guess you may have read my Roman Military Clothing 2 were I suggested this might be a possibility based on the evidence I had collected.

Wasn't that an idea of Dan Peterson?

And the Late Roman army did not wear uniforms with all the men similarly dressed! that's a modernism that we can't seem to get rid off.

Really Robert? I would find that hard to believe looking at modern Late Roman re-enactors as they all dress very differently and certainly not uniform in any way.

I think most Late Roman re-enactors do it right. With 'we' I meant the public, which expects rows upon rows of exacly similarly armoured and dressed soldiers. I still blame Asterix.

Archaeologically there is a lot of evidence for 'uniform' and I use the term loosely, type of equipment especially in the mid to later empire no doubt with the introduction of the arms factories. I am quite sure they were capable of producing sets of wool tunics in a few standard sizes which is what the sources tell us they did. Now as to colour and decoration.....well we all know that is a different story.

The thing is, looking at the introduction of state-produced equipment, I would also expect standardised equipment. But when we look at helmets, there are no two helmet alike.. So far at least.
As to clothing - sure, standard tunics should be expected too, but so far I have seen no artistical represnetation of exactly similarly decorated tunics..

The infantrymen and their shield in the illustration above seem to owe more to Dan Shadrake's Britannia rather than Deepeeka!

Without any doubt!

[Caius Valens]

Hi Caius Here , While perhaps there was no uniform in the Modern sense, There must have been a Degree of Uniformity in terms of Helms armour and Swords. First of All Chain Mail would have given a visual effect of Uniformity as well as all the men having the same sheild types, As well a Static unit on the Wall Most of the men would have the same basic helm (Simple Ridge) while some might have an older helm(Lets say this is an early to Mid 4th century unit, say 1-3 old Aux e still kicking around. While wealthier soliders and Officers would have the more jewled and Gilded helms sutiable for Men of wealth and Status. I think while Modern Reenactors do a great Job in protraying Late Roman Troops, They dress themselves in what they want and like, These men may not have had the same freedom of choice and wealth as we do. It is my honest belief with all do respect to others, that there was in fact more Uniform dress then we belive to be the case. Also men who are not well paid and supplied as often has been stated would not have turned down unit issue of Clothing. Itwas in all likely hood a uniform colour and cut Any how my two cents Caius Cheers Thomas R

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Did the later field armies and garrison militias not recieve an allowance to purchase their equipment, and have to supplement this with doing other jobs on the side?

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Caius Here , While perhaps there was no uniform in the Modern sense, There must have been a Degree of Uniformity in terms of Helms armour and Swords. First of All Chain Mail would have given a visual effect of Uniformity as well as all the men having the same sheild types, As well a Static unit on the Wall

Hi Thomas,
You say 'must', but why 'must' that have been the case? In the sense of all soldiers dressed in armour looking as they belong to one group, sure, but where do you find the evidence that all equipment 'must' have looked similar?

Most of the men would have the same basic helm (Simple Ridge) while some might have an older helm(Lets say this is an early to Mid 4th century unit, say 1-3 old Aux e still kicking around. While wealthier soliders and Officers would have the more jewled and Gilded helms sutiable for Men of wealth and Status.

Again, why 'must' the ranks have had the same helmet type? Because we expect them to? I seriously doubt that the older Aux types were around for long - repairing them would become ever more difficult. We even have the Florence helmet, which is an older Aux type that has been 're-done' in an Intercisa-like style!

I think while Modern Reenactors do a great Job in protraying Late Roman Troops, They dress themselves in what they want and like, These men may not have had the same freedom of choice and wealth as we do. It is my honest belief with all do respect to others, that there was in fact more Uniform dress then we belive to be the case. Also men who are not well paid and supplied as often has been stated would not have turned down unit issue of Clothing. Itwas in all likely hood a uniform colour and cut

Why? Aren't you naming exactly the reasons that would make a unit show all tyupes and colors (which they bought locally or had made/sent by their families)? We know that the state-produced good often fell in arrears, so I don't expect that Late Roman units had lots of high quality uniform clothing to choose from! With decoration we immediately see the personal touch - individuals showed and flaunted decorated clothing, and so far we don't see any uniformly clothed Late Roman units.

So no uniform. We can assume all we want of course, but so far I have yet to see it!

[Graham Sumner]

Robert wrote:

I think most Late Roman re-enactors do it right. With 'we' I meant the public, which expects rows upon rows of exacly similarly armoured and dressed soldiers. I still blame Asterix.

Why? The Roman soldiers depicted in 'Asterix the Gau'l are not the same as those in 'Asterix and the Goths' or 'Asterix and Caesar's Gift' for example. Really Robert, you should check the original sources! In fact in 'Asterix and the Goths', they have bronze lorica!!!!

The thing is, looking at the introduction of state-produced equipment, I would also expect standardised equipment. But when we look at helmets, there are no two helmet alike.. So far at least.
As to clothing - sure, standard tunics should be expected too, but so far I have seen no artistical representation of exactly similarly decorated tunics..

I have just been looking at James' Dura book recently and he remarks on the similarity of some equipment from across the empire. There was certainly a 'uniform' soldiers look in the third century. Undoubtedly not everything is exactly the same as if produced in a modern factory but they were getting there. I have seen boots in South Wales which look identical and could even have been made by the same person who made a pair of boots found in Dura, which is as about as empire wide as you can get. The helmets may not all be the same but they appear to follow a few basic patterns. The tunics likewise were certainly produced in a few basic sizes but you are quite right there is no evidence as yet that the entire army had the same decoration.

Graham.

[Robert Vermaat]

I have just been looking at James' Dura book recently and he remarks on the similarity of some equipment from across the empire. There was certainly a 'uniform' soldiers look in the third century. Undoubtedly not everything is exactly the same as if produced in a modern factory but they were getting there. I have seen boots in South Wales which look identical and could even have been made by the same person who made a pair of boots found in Dura, which is as about as empire wide as you can get. The helmets may not all be the same but they appear to follow a few basic patterns. The tunics likewise were certainly produced in a few basic sizes but you are quite right there is no evidence as yet that the entire army had the same decoration.

Especially with the helmets, which seem to have been made is parts that were later assembled. I would have expected to see much more similarity.

[Artist]

So from what I can tell tunic decorations were a personal touch? or were they sewed on when manufactured? so wouldnt it make much sense soldiers having same tunic decorations if they came from one same factory?

or was it more like a civilian clothing....different colours, shades, decorations for variety, and personal tatse?

[Robert Vermaat]

I would say the latter one, especially after having served a few years.

[Salvianus]

Comitatus troop types

Regarding the uniformity or otherwise of Late armies, I feel Simon MacDowall put it neatly - at certain times a unit might have a pretty uniform appearance by accident or design, either through the remaining issues of equipment from fabricae or just from them all spending their clothing allowances locally where they were stationed and thus with the same suppliers, but that individual differences might perforce increase with the field army on campaign.
:?

[Artist]

are there any surviving samples of tunics found in england?

could anyone suggest a coptic pattern?

[Graham Sumner]

Again, why 'must' the ranks have had the same helmet type? Because we expect them to? I seriously doubt that the older Aux types were around for long - repairing them would become ever more difficult. We even have the Florence helmet, which is an older Aux type that has been 're-done' in an Intercisa-like style!

What Robert means is that we can rarely be certain of anything. Best to use terms like might, maybe, possible, probable or perhaps.

The question is what do we regard as uniform in the first place? The Ermine Street Guard were often criticized for their Buckingham Palace uniformity. And yet the three main types of body armour were represented within the group, mail, scale and the various types of Corbridge armours; practically every helmet type from the first century; most of the various different belt plates swords and daggers were reproduced and even the tunics were not all the same shade of red as they had been produced and dyed over many years and yet people still say they all look too uniform.

In the third century practically every rank of soldier on his tombstone looks identical. Of course this is without the benefit of paint on most of them which may have provided different details but otherwise they all have knee length tunics with long close fitting sleeves; a belt usually with a ring buckle and sword suspended on the left, a cloak and tight fitting trousers. The men's hair and beard are also closely trimmed. If the monument was painted this 'dress' uniform would almost certainly be white possibly with purple red bands on the wrists and with purple red clavi. Cloaks of equestrian officers might be white but others could be red or blue although the most common would probably be yellow brown. The trousers would be either dark grey or dark brown. The trousers are invariably tucked into interlaced types of boots. Certain details like sword scabbard chapes might be different or the occasional belt fitting. Ranks or awards might have been recognized by different numbers of bands on tunic sleeves or the colours of the cloak but almost certainly officers would have better quality gear. Nevertheless what we are left with in effect is the most 'uniform' looking bunch of soldiers before the appearance of military dress manuals in the eighteenth century.

However if your interpretation of 'uniform' is that every single Roman soldier is equipped exactly the same then I would probably say no and that is not always possible even today. In the recent Gulf war it was obvious that some American servicemen had been sent direct from bases in either Europe or America, Their desert camouflage gear consisted of a sand coloured cover over their helmets otherwise they had green combat fatigues.

It is quite conceivable that groups or units of Roman soldiers would be issued with their kit at the same time. For a brief moment one unit might therefore look fairly or even almost uniform but inevitably changes would creep in for any number of reasons. However I still think that like the ESG in spite of all these differences we can still use the term 'uniform' when describing the Roman army.

are there any surviving samples of tunics found in england?

could anyone suggest a coptic pattern?

Simple answer for once, No sadly. There are textile finds in Britain but the only complete garment is the sock from Vindolanda. There are some Late Roman mosaics such as the scenes of Dido and Aeneas at Low Ham which show the same basic tunic with banded sleeves and clavi that were worn in Egypt, with trousers and cloak. So either another example of across empire uniformity of dress or that the mosaic workers across the empire were copying the same designs!

Graham.