Late Roman tunic (Clavi)

[Graham Sumner]

Paul & Robert

If the original evidence was just an odd quote from literature or the artistic evidence which I know many people would doubt I would understand your own doubts. You are forgetting however that there is in this case also archaeological evidence too.

I am surprised moreover that you have not pointed out that in Roman Military Clothing 2, I show a number of reconstruction paintings which show long sleeved tunics without these tight fitting cuffs. This is because I based the paintings on reconstructed tunics both my own and those of other re-enactors. Probably like yours too these were based on original specimins. It was Raffaele D'Amato who pointed out to me that the slightly baggy sleeves I had depicted were incorrect and my own subsequent research has borne this out. In future works I will endeavor to amend this oversight, Roman Military Clothing 3 for instance showed only tight fitting sleeves.

The tunic reconstructed by Aitor has close fitting sleeves and as I said earlier so do those of modern Orthodox priests, so come on guys it is not impossible. The problem with basing tunics on original specimens is that we do not know the size of the original owner. It is also unlikely but not impossible, that the original tunic was a military one. Even if they do have tight fitting sleeves this is still not a sure indicator of military origin as some of them are so small they must have belonged to children.

Not being a weaver I do not know if it is possible to weave a fabric which can be repeatedly stretched without tearing or becoming permanently distorted.

Roman soldiers who would have more than one tunic anyway and would also get quite regular replacements. I doubt whether the average soldier spent as much time and effort on his tunic as you have Paul so I hope you do not think me too critical. Like everyone else I am just keen to try and get things right.

I hope this helps.

Graham.

[Crispvs]

Graham,

No, I do not think you are being over-critical. The points you raise are good ones, particularly with regard to the owners of the tunics I copied.
Possibly of interest though, is the fact that the tunic whose decoration I have been copying featured warriors and eagles within the circles in the tabuli, which I have yet to undertake. I do know that it was an adult's tunic, as mine is the same size as the original.

Incidentally, I did not say that the tight cuff was impossible. I merely said that, not having any real experience of weaving techniquies, I did not know how it could be achieved. Also, my sleeves are about as close fitting as they can get already.

Crispvs

[Graham Sumner]

Possibly of interest though, is the fact that the tunic whose decoration I have been copying featured warriors and eagles within the circles in the tabuli, which I have yet to undertake. I do know that it was an adult's tunic, as mine is the same size as the original.

That certainly is of interest and I look forward to seeing the finished article. It is looking good anyway! Any chance you could pm me the designs?

It is a pity there is not a single publication illustrating all the existing tunic and other clothing remains and especially the designs. However calling them Coptic is possibly not the best marketing strategy and I think even some archaeologists and historians are coming round to the idea that the term is misleading.

Graham.

[Crispvs]

Graham,

The only images I have of the originals are the photos in the Christie's catalogue. I did contact Christie's at the time about more images of them but they were either unable or unwilling to help. One reason I have not yet done the motifs is that only those on the skirts are clearly visible in the photo and I had be waiting until I found suitable designs for the tabuli at the shoulders. I will try to get someone to scan the catalogue photos for me. I am not sure how to PM pictures but I am pretty sure I have your home address somewhere and so I could send you print outs.

Crispvs

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Graham,

No You're not too critical..

The tunic reconstructed by Aitor has close fitting sleeves and as I said earlier so do those of modern Orthodox priests, so come on guys it is not impossible.

Do they wear long-sleeved undetunicas? I could not possibly get that sleeve through the upper one without grasping it in my fist.

My linen just won't stretch like you want it to. Which fabric will? Just a better quality linen? Wool?

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Robert

Do they wear long-sleeved undetunicas? I could not possibly get that sleeve through the upper one without grasping it in my fist.

My linen just won't stretch like you want it to. Which fabric will? Just a better quality linen? Wool?

I have seen linen tunic shaped shirts possibly used as undertunics but I am sure wearing them would not be compulsory more a matter of need or taste. As to your second question you are possibly right in a sense the ancients had different quality wool and linen than we use today. Whether it was better is a matter of opinion. I myself have not seen anything in general use today which looks like the wool you see in the original garments and definitely not manufactured in the same way. I think you need to visit Antwerp there you will find better answers than I can give. Maybe more questions too!

Best wishes

Graham.

[Robert Vermaat]

I understand that to get a sleeve hat is tight enough to be correct, I need a linen that somehow stretches a bit – I have not seen modern linen that can.
Also, I need an undertunic (especially under my woollen one) for colder weather and comfort.

Bit, unfortunately, prohibit (for now) the creation of an authentic tunic with tight enough sleeves...

[Primvs Pavlvs]

I have seen reconstructions of medieval hosen made from linen thats cut on an angle to get to fit the leg better. Is it possible Robert to construct your sleeves the same way?

[Robert Vermaat]

Do you have a picture to illustrate that technique?

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Robert

You will never have an 'authentic' tunic unless you can afford to have one entirely hand woven using similar wool to what the Romans would have used made by someone who knows exactly what they are doing based on years of experience.

However for re-enactment purposes the linen tunic Aitor has is ideal and he has also managed to get reasonably narrow cuffs which he manages to use without dislocating his arms. I keep mentioning his tunic because without resorting to the expense of having something hand woven he has still achieved the best tunic I have seen. Not only that but he incorporates accurate designs without resorting to made up ones or using modern Indian ones. Full marks.

Perhaps he should go into mass production of his design!

Graham.

[aitor iriarte]

Oh, Graham, please... :oops: :oops:
Notwithstanding I cheated a little too. I had the sleeves made longer than on the original pattern, the Reepsholt tunic. Look:



Crispus,
I find the design of the original tunic you have replicated a little strange :?
I cannot say that it is not correct, of course, but, in spite of the garment being original, the original seams only rarely survive and they are sometimes 'creatively' remade at the museums...

Aitor

[Robert Vermaat]

OK, so the sleeves themselves need not be so tight-fitting, as long as the cuff are tight? At least that's what I conclude from the design below. Aitor's sleeves are longer than Paul's, but Paul's sleeves are maybe to straight and tight, which will get you into trouble with and undertunic.



Aitor, wasn't your tunic made from cotton?

[Restitvtvs]

Blimey! aren't they tight enough already?

No tighter than a modern sweatshirt perhaps or those worn by orthodox priests, whose garments are actually decended from late Roman ones.

Related orthodox church (Western Rite) priest's old-style "alb" (stikhar):



From this monastery webpage.

[aitor iriarte]

Many thanks, William!
Certainly, the sleeves/cuffs look very like those of Late Roman tunics but the pattern is somewhat different and already mediaeval. The garment isn't woven in one piece anymore and, at least, I can see inserted gores at the sides... :?

Aitor

[Robert Vermaat]

Very interesting! That way, we could prevent a much-too-baggy look because of the wide body.