Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ?

[S SEVERUS]

For me, I would have expected far more finds of a military nature for such a significant battle fought over a relatively small area.)

Don't you think that the army of Arminius would have looted the battle field for all military items?

[L C Cinna]

For me, I would have expected far more finds of a military nature for such a significant battle fought over a relatively small area.)

Don't you think that the army of Arminius would have looted the battle field for all military items?

I agree. Metal was precious, especially in Germania. Plus they'd probably try to get as much booty and trophies as possible.

[garrelt]

What about replacing broken/damaged/ lost material and
(re-)equiping (germanic) troops or providing them with extra material.

To me it looks that the whole Teutenborger forest area was part of the battle field.
With small groups creating havoc in the Roman ranks doing hit and run actions in a dence forest.
No space for cavalry and or artillery let allone room for moving in a phalanx.
In such an area you don't have to be with many to harras your opponent.

But where is the great end Battle, in my opinion, is your gues as good as mine.
Maybe this will never get clear

It is the same as asking: Where was the major battle between the Romans and the Batavians.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Don't you think that the army of Arminius would have looted the battle field for all military items?

They surely did so, but Tacitus mentions that six years after the Varian disaster they were still (broken) weapons visibly left at the scene. And I think the Germans were not able to loot everything they would have liked to, because the amount of booty was way too big and perhaps the distance to the Germanic home villages to long. Given the weight of the kit of an individual legionary + army's overall stuff + civilian material, I would say that without baggage train and a high proportion of the people killed who had carried their loads there was no realistic chance for the Germans to carry all away. And here my point is, that civilian utensils are at least of same value to the Germans as weapons. So when Varus column had been destroyed at Kalkriese I would expect a mixture of civ./mil. finds. But it could well be, when Germanicus went to the scene (if Kalkriese is Varus site) that they collected all remaining weapons and left the civilian stuff. :?

Metal was precious, especially in Germania.

Yes right, but when Varus was destroyed so much metall fell into German hands, that they perhaps didnt esteem it as high as they would otherwise have done.

[Nerva]

Ah Tiberius, you got there before me! I think if such material was in evidence several years later then Arminius didn't make off with it all. I have no doubt that we could come up with all kinds of explanations as to why such precious little equipment has been found. The Germans making off with it, the Romans recovering it, peasants making off with it over time etc.

As I said, there are other ancient battle fields where little has also been found too, but take the likes of Gergovia and Alesia, the finds there are quite extensive and a similar number of men were probably involved, although the death toll is said to have been less.

I'm not saying that Kalkriese is, or is not the site of the battle. I do, based on the lack of similar finds anywhere else nearby, agree that it's probably the site of the battle, I'm not even remotely qualified to make such a statement, but we must also accept that much of the evidence is circumstantial, that's why this argument exists in the first place. I do not however, accept that there is any single piece of evidence or argument that can categorically identify Kalkriese as the battle site, and until such exists this wonderful debate will continue.

I would strongly recommend people to go to the site and see it and the museum for themselves. One of the things that did really disappoint me was how little has been done with the park. There are a few posters around various parts of the site and some rather bizzar buildings. There's probably good reason for this but it went over my head at the time

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

What about replacing broken/damaged/ lost material and
(re-)equiping (germanic) troops or providing them with extra material.

Yes, may be, but why leaving civilian material. I would argue that in Germania it should have been more valuable as weapons. The Germans were successful with the less elaborated weapons they already had.

To me it looks that the whole Teutenborger forest area was part of the battle field.

When on march the length of the entire column should have been between 15 - 28 km. Likely the latter, I guess. The units became surely soon separated and may be never fought as whole body (i.e. formation) again.
Even Caecinas much bigger fighting force in far better formation had been almost overrun by Arminius troops.

@L L Cinna: Hi Micha, just saw you're from Berlin. At which University are you? I'm at the TU.

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Ah Tiberius, you got there before me!

Sorry Nerva :oops:

I'm not saying that Kalkriese is, or is not the site of the battle.

My point, too. I'd love the idea of finding the site, no matter where, but too many questions remain.

The very impressive website of the university of Osnabrueck: http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de ... index.html
...only in german AFAIK

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

If you read the book 'The Battle that Stopped Rome', there is a map of find deposits that clearly depict the battle. the column, the bunched up last stands, and the fleeing remanents.........to my mind at least, anyway!

[Robert Vermaat]

This can easily be explained in this case as there was a large civilian baggage train, but the quantity of these items is so large in comparison to those of a strictly military nature.

That's bothering me, too. If one assumes that Kalkriese is the point there last remnants of Varus column were finished, the opposite would be more reasonable to me.

To me it looks that the whole Teutenborger forest area was part of the battle field.
[..]
But where is the great end Battle, in my opinion, is your gues as good as mine.

Indeed. Kalkriese was sure one of the focal points, but my guess is that other parts of this days-long battle still need to turn up, like for example the last camp, the spot where Varus took his own life. And probably there were final battles and skirmishes to the West of kalkriese, that still defied researchers. As to the dearh of weapons, Germans, Germanicus and later use of the site surely took care of the larger stuff. Was there not a report of the find of 'swords' from the Napoleontic period? remember that the site was in use over the centuries.

Was there ONE great end battle? Not in my book. Kalkriese is where the Roman column was blown up, 'versprengt', and large and small groups (and who knows how many individuals) struggled on, defeated over days to come while exfiltrating Westwards, only some reaching Roman lines..

Ah! The tragic heroics of it all!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Yes that is what I mean, as it was picked at for days.
But as for the signifigant struggle that broke the columns back, the deposites are pretty graphic.

[garrelt]

Yes, may be, but why leaving civilian material. I would argue that in Germania it should have been more valuable as weapons. The Germans were successful with the less elaborated weapons they already had.

Do you mean with "elaborated" that the Germans had weapons of lesser quality than Roman troops as stated in the Bello Gallica.

Don't forget that there was already trading going on, before roman forces came to Germany, and the craftsmanship of Germans in metal working was also good.
Also quality weapons where at hand, according to the documented archaeological evidence.
Their way of fighting can be different, but not their intention of defending the home country.

You don't need pots and other domestic material when you are fighting.
You only take what you really need, why weigh yourself down with things you don't need.

See what is being left on a modern battle field and come back 10 or 20 years later, or even longer, still you find material from that battle.
In Belgium material from the first world war still turns up at the old battle fields.

Last year we did an excavation in our town and dug up parts from the old water defenses surrounding the city and found material which could be linked to the 80 years war against Spain in the late 16th century.
More domestic material than weapons.

When on march the length of the entire column should have been between 15 - 28 km. Likely the latter, I guess. The units became surely soon separated and may be never fought as whole body (i.e. formation) again.
Even Caecinas much bigger fighting force in far better formation had been almost overrun by Arminius troops.

Is there written evidence that the Roman forces were attacked on the march?
Why then the rampart remains and ditches, or were these made by Germans for ambushing Roman troops?
Yes i know that every night Roman soldiers had to make camp in a rampart and ditches surrounded camp.

I know this sounds a bit of not buying the known story , but do we really know what happened?
There is no eyewitness account of the actual way things went on.

But it is good to keep on doing research and discussing about a topic like this one..

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

There were survivors....

The wall/ rampart alongside th trail, which collapsed on the mule?
Were traces of this not found?

[Tiberius Clodius Corvinus]

Do you mean with "elaborated" that the Germans had weapons of lesser quality than Roman troops as stated in the Bello Gallica.

Yes, I read somewhere, that Germans weapons were of so poor quality (the material, NOT the craftmanship) that sometimes during battle they did bend. But I may be wrong on this.

You don't need pots and other domestic material when you are fighting. You only take what you really need, why weigh yourself down with things you don't need.

I basically agree on this, but do you think that at any time the Germans had a lack of weapons? Given that you said on the quality of German weapons, I would even more doubt that weaponry was their main interest while looting. My "problem" is here further that the civilian stuff has gotten so far, provided Kalkriese is one of the endpoints of the Varian battle.

Is there written evidence that the Roman forces were attacked on the march? Why then the ramparts remains and ditches, or were these made by Germans for ambushing Roman troops?

The easier thing would surely have been to take them on march, but after reading closer about Caecinas battle of pontes longi, I think the Germans would have been able to overrun Varus weakend army in camp as well.
On the rampart, I have read on the Osnabruck university-site http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de ... bung4.html that it is clearly not a make-shift field fortification but German.

[S SEVERUS]

Did they find coins in Kalkriese as to be able to date the finds? So if it's in that time span it could be one of the places where a portion of Varus Army was attacked.
Sure, we can't be sure it really is the place of the battle but when the army was indeed attacked on the march then there must be other places where you could find weapon, gear, etc...

Someone mentions Alesia... Were there many weapon finds there such as weapons or was it just arrow head, sling stone, etc... It was a siege so everything must have been much concentrated there.

What about other roman battles. Can you compare finds with those battle fields?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Coins = found, marked with the Varus id