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Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - raeticus - 11-16-2006
Looks like Kalkriese is under fire again as the battle site for Varus' defeat.
DER SPIEGEL (46/2006) - 13.11.2006 (1645 Zeichen)
ARCHÄOLOGIE : Verwirrung um die Varusschlacht
Neue Bodenfunde stellen bisheriges Ende der Varuskatastrophe in Frage:
Next to the so called "Germanic" wall archeologists found two parallel ditches typical for Roman fortifications, 2 m deep, 50 m long, plus a Roman dolabra and some decorated silver artefacts. Possibly Kalkriese was rather a fortified Roman army camp, ie from Caecinas time 15 AD. Involved archeologists are said to have met yesterday for a "crisis session".
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs - 11-16-2006
If I'm not mistaken wasn't there a fortification which the "victims"(for lack of a better word) ran to escape the slaughter?
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Publius Militiares - 11-16-2006
I was there yesterday. There are not very much new things exept another dolabra (behind the wall) and two short partly V-shaped ditches on the left flank of the wall (covering the flank at the small stream) If you give me 2 or 3 hours i will provide you with further info since i have written down many details.
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Robert Vermaat - 11-16-2006
We've been discussing that before:
http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... riese+mule
Spiegel et al - raeticus - 11-16-2006
....as 2009 approaches we will no doubt see more of this in the mainstream media, at least in Germany.
Anyway, in case of doubt always vote in favour of the null hypothesis. Meaning if a hypothesis cannot be proven as being true beyond a certain acceptable level of doubt, one should not by default assume it is true. Rather assume it is not.
The rest is wishful thinking (also called religion or dogma).
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Publius Militiares - 11-16-2006
First of all, i will hold my personal opinion back until the end of this text so you get a better look on the infos itself. I hope my english is good enough to prevent misunderstandings.
The discussion took place in Detmold, a small late-medieval town which is famous for the Externsteine and the Herrmannsdenkmal. In the last 100 years many people tryed to locate the Varusschlacht in this area. So it is quite natural that every info on the excavations in Kalkriese will be handled very critical.
For this discussion the Lippisches Landesmuseum Detmold had envited 5 experts from different archeological and historical disciplines:
PD Dr. G. Moosbauer (University of Osnabrück)
"Kalkriese - Ein multidisziplinäres Forschungsprojekt"
Dr. S. Wilbers-Rost (Museum and Park Kalkriese)
"Die Ausgrabungen auf dem "Oberesch" in Kalkriese und Möglichkeiten zur Interpretation der Kampfhandlungen"
Dr. A. Rost (Belm)
Methodische Ãœberlegungen zur Interpretation des Kampfplatzes von Kalkriese,
Dr. P. Kehne (Leibniz University Hannover)
Die Aussagekraft antiker Quellen zur Interpretation von Kalkriese,
Prof. Dr. R. Wolters (Eberhard-Karls-University Tübingen)
Die Aussagekraft römischer Münzen zur Datierung frühkaiserzeitlicher Fundplätze,
When we arrived the museum there was a BIG crowd outside waiting for a possibility to enter. They telled us that the room normally fits 200 persons and now was crowded with more than 300. Minimum 200 were waiting outside. We had a long discussion with the personnel of the museum, but after mentioning that i had drove more than 100 km to hear the experts, they finally let us in. We catched the last bit of space standing in the farest corner. After technical problems the event finally started.
It began with a short speech by PD Dr. G. Moosbauer.
He started with a short overview over the excavations since 1987.
The area in wich single finds were made by prospection is now more than 30 Sqare-kilometers big, wich in his opinion points to a long rearguard action. The only direct battle area is still the Oberesch, following the 400 meters of the earten wall.
His dating for Kalkriese founds
1. on the coins. in his opinion the missing of the 13/14 a.D coins from Lugdunum shows that the battle was fought before 14 a.D.
2. on the missing of niello-covered objects, which should be pre-Tiberian period
In the following Miss Dr. S. Wilbers-Rost (the excavating archeologist from Kalkriese) spoke about old and new finds. There are now more than 4000 finds from the main battle area at the Oberesch. The defense wall is up to 4m wide and 2m tall and made of different earthen materials coming from directly behind the wall. The wall has partially a drainage ditch behind it wich has partially a V-shaped profile.
After this years dig we now know of short ditches on both ends of the wall (the wall ends in the east and west at small streams. the ditches [two on both sides] obviously cover the flanks on the small streams)
This ditches also partially had V-profiles. Wilbers-Rost pointed out that this profile must not be roman, especially when we think about Arminius´s troops wich had plenty of info about their former allys.
Wilbers-Rost also spoke about the 8 pits filled with bones. In all the pits the human bones were mixed with an amount of horse- or mule-bones.
Nevertheless the percentage of human bones in all of the pits is more than 50%.
In a short sentence she also telled the public about a new dolabra found behind the wall.
The next one was Dr. Rost who looked on the facts of Kalkriese from the view of a battlefield-Acheologist. There was nothing new in his speech. His opinion is that the finds of mules prove the Varusschlacht theory (he said that Caecina in comparison lost nearly nothing of his followers).
Next was Dr. P. Kehne. He is a specialist for early imperial roman textes and tried to show some informations from Tacitus and Cassius Dio, which should prove that Kalkriese cannot be the Varusschlacht.
Kehne began with Cassius Dio. He gives short informations about the battle and the topographic situation.
Interesting: the battle should have lasted for four, not for three days (Cassius Dio seems to jump from day 2 to 4)
Dio tells about a camp on the west side of the river Weser, where Varus spend the summer. From this camp Varus should have marched through an area with high hills and deep valleys.
Tacitus on the other hand tells us not about the battle of Varus , but about the march of Germanicus, who should have discovered the Varian Battlefield and buried the corpses of the dead soldiers in a big mount.
On his way to the "places of sorrow" (yes, this is meant in plural) he went down the river Ems to the land of the Brukterer, wich was found empty. The land of the Brukterer was described as lying between the rivers Ems and Lippe. At the far border of this area he set up camp (suggested in the area of Paderborn). From there he reached the battlefields last stand passing two camps wich Varus had builded (the second one destroyed)
Kehne now points out that Germanicus reached the area near Paderborn from west-north-west. Kalkriese now is from this area 80 km north-west.
His theory is that Germanicus would have never took this way to visit the varian battlefield (Germanicus knew where it was).
Responding to Dr. Rosts argument that Caecina had not lost many of his followers Kehne tells that this is wrong. The sources would tell (Sorry, but i forgot which source it was) that he lost nearly the half.
At last Prof. Dr. Wolters spoke about the coins and about the dating for Kalkriese. He has analysed that the coin-collections of 9 a.D. and 15 a.D. in this region are by 99,9% the same. His opinion is that the coins from Lugdunum from 13/14 a.D. did not reach this area before the last actions from Germanicus in 16 a.D.. he points out that from the coins a dating of Kalkriese is nearly impossible.
In the end the public was questioning the 5 doctors. Nothing new was told an we soon went off.
All in all it was an interesting evening hearing the different theories from persons directly working on Kalkriese and the projects related to it.
Again:
This is not my personal opinion, i only tell what i heard yesterday.
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Robert Vermaat - 11-16-2006
Thanks Patrick, for that very interesting report!
Nothing new on the theories, so far, but assumptions about texts written long after the fact. As if you hear two blind men discussing a painting.
I mean, looking at this map: http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de ... karte1.jpg , the land of the Bructeri being situated between Ems and Lippe, why should the 'far border' necessarily mean Paderborn? From the Roman point of view, it could also be the Münster area, which would mean Germanicus was on a direct route to Kalkriese.
Nothing new - this has been been done for centuries before the Kalkriese battlefield was discovered. I suppose it will go on for centuries after.
Quote:First of all, i will hold my personal opinion back until the end of this text so you get a better look on the infos itself.OK, so what Ãs your personal opinion?
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Arahne - 11-16-2006
I hope that this link will be interesting (english translation of the site does not include few interesting pages, this one also)
http://www.kalkriese-varusschlacht.de/deutsch.html f....in javascript point to archeologie
also informative pages
http://www.varusforschung.de/
http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de ... /2a41.html
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Tarbicus - 11-16-2006
I don't see the big deal about the V-shaped ditches anyway. Arminius was a Roman officer and grew up in Rome. His men who were part of the conspiracy were also Roman auxilia.
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Marcus Cassius LegioXIV - 11-16-2006
I remember hearing that on the 2nd or 3rd day where Varus had his last stand is where he also fortified or built a fort of some sort. Could this be the same fortified area where the bones are? Just wondering
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Cornelius Quintus - 11-16-2006
Ave Patrick,
thanks again for the very clear report!
Another laudes to you!
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Jona Lendering - 11-17-2006
Thanks Patrick. Several RAT-members will be in Augsburg this weekend, and no doubt you gave them a lot to talk about!
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - markusaurelius - 11-17-2006
Great Report!
Interesting. I'm sure as they dig further they will answer more questions......or just raise more questions. One of the tow
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS - 11-17-2006
very interesting theories!! But has anyone noticed the fact that apart from the wall being maybe built by Germanic tribesmen, the putting up of such a quick fortification might have easily be done amidst the fighting itself?, and maybe that is why the dolabra were found, because the builders were at some time simply overrun?
since a dolabra is not something you easily loose....
M.VIB.M.
Re: Kalkriese is not the Varus battle site ? - Publius Militiares - 11-17-2006
Ok Robert, you asked me about my opinion.
I am not really the man who says that Kalkriese is or is not the Varusschlacht. At the moment there are many good arguments for the therorie, but also there are strange doubts, as for example the bone-pits:
why had the romans threwn so many bones of animals into them.... (who by the way tells us that this human bones are roman?)
Perhaps most of my scepticism reaches back to my visits in the Kalriese museum. The way how the finds were presented there was too much straigtly pointing to a "now doubts, we have got it" manner. Even at the end of the museum when you leave the room there was a big shield with the sentence:
"Yes, now i am shure, this is the site of the Varusschlacht"
I think thats exactly my problem with this theory. They have promoted it before they had any real clues.
Yes, they have a battle from the augusteian wars, but at the moment i am not able to see which one, Varus or Caecina.
I think this discussion two days ago wil heaten up again now as they have promoted additional public meetings (next time in a hall with space for 1000visitors.)
Additionally there will be an evening with Dr. Berke from Münster about roman finds in the whole area.
I wish you all a good weekend (i cannot visit you in Augsburg because we have our meeting from our own small forum :-) ) )