Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!!

[D B Campbell]

I prefer the figurative explanation, Jim.

I'm willing to listen to your theory about the introduction of a new type of armour, but you'd really need some concrete evidence. Webster's interpretation sounds a little desperate to me: why does ferrata have to mean plate armour "incorporated into the mail cuirass"?

(Re. Webster's explanation: I did briefly wonder if he was thinking of the Alba Iulia sculpture, but I don't think it had been discovered then.)

[Tarbicus]

I'll be working on it for quite some time, Duncan. You know when something grabs you unexpectedly?

Many thanks to everyone for humouring me :wink:

[Matt Lukes]

It is a cool idea Jim- I'd LOVE it if some clear evidence that supports it comes along :wink:

[Tarbicus]

I'd LOVE it if some clear evidence that supports it comes along Wink

Yeah, me too :?

Anyone read Dando-Collins' Cleopatra's Kidnappers: How Caesar's Sixth Legion Gave Egypt to Rome and Rome to Caesar?

[M. Demetrius]

Anyone read Dando-Collins'

I've heard some folks make disparaging remarks about Mr. D-C's history knowledge. Others say he's ok. I'm intereseted in hearing more. I've read Caesar's Legion, the story of the 10th Equestris, and he does miss the fact that it was the OTHER 10th, Augustus' 10th, that sacked Jerusalem, according to most, but that's not the ultimate error, imho. Don't want to hijack the thread, so feel free to pm me if that's better.

[rusty myers]

i read it, and overall seems to have less inaccuracies than other books, probly because the period is well documented, and he does not try to do the entire history of the Sixth

[Tarbicus]

Thanks guys, I've ordered it.

[marsvigilia]

I like it Tarbicus. Perhaps the first introduction or first full introduction of the plate armor. Cool idea.

[Marcus Julius]

I think it is not without relevance that VI Ferrata and V Alaudae, 'the larks', were recruited at the same time, among people who were not fully recognized as Romans (Gallia Cisalpina), and were probably the first units with a surname.

I am tempted to believe that Ferrata has something to do with the surname of its twin, although I have no idea what that link may be.

Hmm, I'm suddenly being reminded of one of the earlier posts here, mentioning the translations/definition of the word - one of which meaning "in chains". Since they were not fully recognized as Roman, maybe they were percieved, or even perceived themselves as having removed the bonds of the conquerors by becoming legionaires?

Not that I really believe this to be the case, but I do love throwing new flavors in the soup

[Tarbicus]

I don't think 'ferrata' by itself means that, and has 'servis', or some-such, before or after it.

[L C Cinna]

Hmm here another suggestion>

I remember seeing some Caesarian equipment in Junkelmann's book about the legions of Augustus. Some of the equipment, the Mannheim helmets, are rather simple and cheap, which imho would be possible equipment for Caesar's legions recruited in Gaul. They were recruited and formed quickly and I guess that might indicate rather cheap, simple and quickly massproduced equipment so they maybe didn't fully reach Roman "standards" but were rather supposed to be some sort of additional support for the older legions until they reached some level of training and experience.

Caesar needed men as soon as possible and they probably didn't get the equipment and training a Roman legion would usually get. He needed them now, better equipment could be gathered later and maybe they were supposed to fulfill some other tasks in the meantime.some kind of supportive or special tasks.

So maybe when they were raised the Ferrata got heavier equipment than Alaudae for example. Maybe Ferrata was equipped with hamatae while Alaudae only recieved pectorals and Mannheim helmets to have a lighter force which doesn't cost that much and can be used for quick operations?

So as the 2 were recruited at the same time they recieved the name "ferrata" not to differ them from other Roman legions but to differ them from their lighter armed gallic comrades of "Alaudae"?

Just an idea to add to the discussion.

ps> to continue with the idea: maybe "Alaudae" was in this case not only chosen becuse of the feathers but becuse of their swiftness (especially in rough wood terrain because of lighter armament)?

[Tarbicus]

I thought the Sixth was an older legion raised by Pompey. It was loaned to Caesar during the Gallic Wars, seeing that right through to the end. When taken back by Pompey it was sent to Spain to be retired, but before that could happen (six weeks before in fact) Caesar crossed the Rubicon and they stayed loyal to Pompey, even though Caesar had given them a handsome 1,000 sesterce donative before leaving for Spain. The classic Ferrata were the ones who defended their's and the Fourteenth's retreat at Pharsallus, were captured and given the choice to join Caesar. One of their conditions was that their numbers remain at the roughly 900 they were down to in that group of defenders. So it doesn't really make any sense that such a veteran legion that didn't have any chance to actually retire, and saw almost continuous action before going over to Caesar at Pharsallus (and afterwards) would need any new equipment at all. The details here are from Dando-Collins.

Dando-Collins ascertains that the Sixth were from Nearer Spain, and were originally raised along with the Fourth.

[L C Cinna]

Oh, ok. my mistake then.sorry

[Tarbicus]

No Michael! If you have any more info then please let me know! Dando-Collins isn't too forthcoming with his sources, and I've not been able to read the book yet, just a quick skim through the first few chapters for something unrelated.

[Tarbicus]

Here's what I've garnered from Dando-Collins about the early days of the Sixth up to its joining Caesar after Pharsallus:

65: Raised by Pompey in Nearer Spain and garrisoned there.

55 - 52: Campaigns in Lusitania. Interesting comment; "...after many a battle in which the men of the Sixth had adopted unorthodox but ultimately successful tactics..." They sound like innovators if so.

52: Loaned by Pompey to Caesar for Gallic campaign after Alesia. They mainly guard the baggage.

52 - 51: Winter - Sixth help quell unrest in Central France.

51: Quell unrest in Western France, with the Fourteeth. Siege of Uxellodunum.

50: Pompey reclaims the Sixth and returns them to Nearer Spain to soon be retired after their sixteen year contract is finished.
Caesar raises the Alaudae legion from Transalpine Gaul.

49: Sixth due to retire in six weeks when Caesar crosses Rubicon. Discharges put on hold, they side with Pompey.
Eastern Spain, outmanoeuvred by Caesar they surrender with the Third, Fourth, Fifth and Valeria. Return to Nearer Spain minus arms.
Afranius and Petreius recall four cohorts of the Sixth, and three of the Fourth to link up with Pompey in Macedonia.

48: March to Dyrrhachium where they are besieged by Caesar, but break out.
Pharsalus - Sixth and Fourth (not Fourteenth, sorry) act as one unit on extreme right flank. The Fourth, and half of Sixth escape when Pompey is routed, the 900 remain to defend them and are captured with the option for clemency and surrender. Taken as POW's they are offered to join with Caesar which they accept, but with conditions beneficial to them. Caesar's original legions are sent back to Italy (probably due to threatened mutinies) and Caesar pursues Pompey with a new army made of cohorts taken at Pharsalus.