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+--- Thread: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! (/showthread.php?tid=7399)
Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Tarbicus - 11-13-2006
Why would a legion, after centuries of legionaries wearing hamata, suddenly call itslef 'Ironclad'?
There have been suggestions of the segmentata originating at the time of Mark Antony. We have the appearance of a legion probably originally formed by Caesar, the Sixth, who made their name 'Ferrata'.
It strikes me as very odd and specific. It's a very visual term to use, as opposed to a more abstract one that was the norm, but these names were usually to show a distinction for that legion. Is this the original legion that first wore the segmentata?
And yes, I see other reasons why they would call themselves that.
PURE CONJECTURE!! BE NICE!!
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - M. Demetrius - 11-13-2006
Veritas in tempore dormit.
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Praefectusclassis - 11-13-2006
How about iron helmets instead of bronze?
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Tarbicus - 11-13-2006
Could be. Is there a better and more specific translation of 'ferrata' ? One I found translates as 'cuirassiers', which would mean (to my little mind) not the helmet.
Dem., I'm still trying to figure out the proper translation :?
We know the Sixth had to be replenished, and this is what Marc Antony took to Parthia. I'm getting carried away.. :roll:
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - adamparsons - 11-13-2006
ferratus : a soldier in armor / in chains (as a slave) / furnished with iron.
ferratus : a soldier in armor /in chains /furnished with iron.
ferratus : iron-clad.
Found these definition on your "reasonably reliable for the web" latin dictionaries-
the in chains/slave one intrigued me. It definatly interesting to have such a descriptive unit name as you say
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - M. Demetrius - 11-13-2006
Sorry, Veritas in tempore dormit means "The truth sleeps in time"
According to one Latin dictionary, "Ferratus" means either "ironclad" or "ironshod", and a second definition is "men in armor". Natch it comes from the root of "Ferrum", or just plain iron. It could be figurative, as you suggested, though, as in "iron willed", "iron fisted", etc.
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Conal - 11-13-2006
First use of hobnails ? :oops: :lol:
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Alexandr K - 11-13-2006
Hi,
ferratus, a, um (adj.) in Lewis and Short: A Latin Dictionary
Greetings
Alexandr
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Tarbicus - 11-13-2006
Dem., I get you now :wink:
Lewis & Short:
II. Subst.: ferrāti , ōrum, m. (sc. milites): in fronte statuerat ferratos, in cornibus cohortes, harnessed soldiers, cuirassiers, Tac. A. 3, 45 .
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Cornelius Quintus - 11-13-2006
Quote:It could be figurative, as you suggested, though, as in "iron willed", "iron fisted", etc.
Ave David,
perhaps it was a metaphor which meant that they stood and fought adamant, unconquerable like being soldiers made of solid metal?
There are more similar terms. CS General 'Stonewall' Jackson earned his nick not because his skills in masonry or being a fortress commander, but because he stood on his position even when it was hailing bullets (It is told he believed his lifetime was in God's hands anyway, so changing his actual whereabouts wouldn't save or harm him...)
And 'iron ration' won't indicate you'll get a rusty sandwich... :wink:
So was there a special incident, battle or so on shortly before they were called 'Ferrata' ? It also might have expressed not only one battle, but a continuous reliability?
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Tarbicus - 11-13-2006
Quote:So was there a special incident, battle or so on shortly before they were called 'Ferrata' ?I don't think there was. It seems to arise as their name just after the legion was 'replenished', and before they went to Parthia even. By 'replenished', that could possibly mean 're-equipped'?
Again here's one meaning in Lewis & Short:
II. Subst.: ferrāti , ōrum, m. (sc. milites): in fronte statuerat ferratos, in cornibus cohortes, harnessed soldiers, cuirassiers, Tac. A. 3, 45 .
Note it is particularly associated with soldiers.
If you also look at most other names of legions, they are usually abstract or based on an abstract characteristic, associated with an individual, a god, or with a geographical region. It's just very strange.
Also, why would a legion be so distinctively named, if every other legion wore iron armour, or probably had all other characteristics that coud be associated with iron?
Check out also livius.org:
[url:1doxx3r2]http://www.livius.org/le-lh/legio/vi_ferrata.html[/url]
Quote:Legio VI Ferrata: one of the Roman legions. Its name means 'ironclad', which is probably a reference to the suits of armor.
So what was so different about their armour that set it aside from any other legion? IF that's the case.
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Praefectusclassis - 11-13-2006
Quote:If you also look at most other names of legions, they are usually abstract or based on an abstract characteristic, associated with an individual, a god, or with a geographical region. It's just very strange.Not really, and certainly not with the very imperial/very late Republican legions. Think of Caesar's X Equestris, X Fretensis and XVII Classica, all fairly concrete qualities. On the other hand, Rapax, Fulminata, Paterna, Antiqua are all very early imperial/late Republican names which are clearly abstract. Ferrata could certainly fit in there as a figurative quality as was suggested by Heiko and David.
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Tarbicus - 11-13-2006
Quote:Rapax, Fulminata, Paterna, AntiquaI don't really agree that they're the same as they're all descriptions of intangible qualities and characteristics, whereas ferrata can have a definite tangible meaning that can describe the appearance of a legion.
Again from livius.org:
Legio X Fretensis: one of the Roman legions. Its name means 'the legion of the sea straits'.
Legio XXI Rapax: one of the Roman legions. The name means 'predator'.
Legio XII Fulminata: one of the Roman legions. Its name means 'the lightning legion'.
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Praefectusclassis - 11-13-2006
Yes, and that's what I suggested with the sentence before the one naming those. They are not very strong examples, I agree, but Equestris, Fretensis and Classica all harken back to a concrete occasion or purpose. Ferrata seems special in that it could have both a tangible and intangible meaning.
Re: Ferrata - Ironclad. Conjecture alert!!! - Tarbicus - 11-13-2006
Righto.