Fencing as a Roman

[marsvigilia]

I wonder why epee does not use whole body lame since the saber getting hit in the leg knows that's not a point. I suspect more accurate judging in very competitive circumstances?

No point really since all touches score a point. All that is necessary is for the plunger to be depressed at the end of the blade to register a point. Everything (except the hand guard counts) counts, toes to nose as it were.

[richsc]

Ah yes, epees have the real estate to support a plunger and the style, where foil is small and sabre is the blade too. That's why a gladius would need the lame: no little trigger, but the whole blade would be used like a sabre.

[marsvigilia]

Good point about gladius needing edge contact sensing. But since the preferred method of using a gladius was for thrusting, a plunger contact would still be useful for differential scoring. Also a torso only lame like in foil could be used but in the reverse way. Since it is harder to penetrate a segmentata, torso hits would be less.

For example if facing opponent wearing segmentata:
0 points for torso slashes
1 points for torso thrusts
2 points for non-torso slashes
4 points for non-torso thrusts
8 points for head thrusts
10 points to kill.

For example if facing un-armorred opponent:
2 points for non-torso slashes
2 points for torso slashes
4 points for non-torso thrusts
8 points for head thrusts
8 points for torso thrusts
10 points to kill.

Just 2 cents worth.

Ah yes, epees have the real estate to support a plunger and the style, where foil is small and sabre is the blade too. That's why a gladius would need the lame: no little trigger, but the whole blade would be used like a sabre.

[richsc]

I was thinking something similar, but segmenting parts of the body, eg, a cut inside to the femoral artery may not kill instantly but the timer is set, or if a arm cut you're required to retire and be replaced.

[Q Rutilius]

I fenced some years ago, and I have often thought about this very subject. It seems to me that first thing to do is to decide what is the target. In epee the whole body is the target. So, if your oponent sneakily slides his blade across the floor and stabs you in the toe, that is a touch against. Now no doubt a stab in the toe with a real sword would hurt, but it is probably not what most people on here have in mind as a legitimate touch against. Also, consider this, are we talking about a blow that is killing? Or one that is immobilizing, i.e. a real blow of the sort that would put a soldier out action. In ancient terms this could mean something like a slash to the hamstring. The one who got slashed can be presumed to be out of the fight, but he may or not be dead (or even dieing). I would opt to score it like foil, 5 touches or a fifteen minute limit. Any touch that can be presumed to be in real life a disabling, although not necessarily a killing blow, is a touch against.

So, points would be scored by touches or slashes against legs, arms, the face. This presumes that the helmet protects the head, and the lorica protects the torso. And yes, I know a solid thrust to the belly could possibly penetrate the armor and render the opponent dead. I have no idea how this type of blow could be simulated or scored.

[richsc]

Yes, I was thinking exactly that. Roman wounded would have to be taken out of line, which is an organizational problem they handled apparently well. How the Celts did it is more conjecture, but if they had no system, maybe they just flailed around?

The suggestion of wireless is great, but it also gave me the idea that the target areas could be isolated. I notice in fencing supply companies that you buy a connector to join the helmet with the saber jacket. Just leave that off and wire the targets in separately to an indicator box, that has lights for each target. Could be LED in the helmet to let the fighter know he's hit, and light on the helmet back (?) to let the team know he needs help. If dead you'd have to fall where you stood and be a problem to the ones around you.

[Caius Fabius]

One of the main problems with fencing electric foil, Sabre and epee is repair.. I did it in the USFA as a competitor as well as for two college/university teams. The electrical cords usually are attached to rollers, to allow them to play out and retract. This needs a little maintenance. The main problem is with the sensor, tips and the off target hits as well as keeping the on target hits grounded. Basically you have two different systems, one takes a point every time you hit your opponent, but you must be on a metal "strip" to prevent off target hits from registering.

You do not get a point against you, the equipment does not say, you were hit here or there. Instead the opponents equipment simply registers a valid touch. In foil the first touch is valid, in epee the first or simultaneous touch is valid. Using this equipment, you can tell who is "killing" people, but NOT who is being "killed". (Saber is a bit more interesting, but basically the same system).

[richsc]

Thanks Caius; did you use the lame? That seems to register hits on the target, thought I've not yet seen it personally (hopefully tomorrow). I have been to VaTech fencing matches and those cords looked very awkward. There is a reason all the fencing sites emphasize tools and repair kits. Which is why the wireless idea is a good one, and one I wonder why the fencing world has not looked into (probably someone has).

[Caius Fabius]

Yes we use the lame, it registers ON Target hits, not hits on a target. With foil, you do not get a point for hitting your opponent "Off Target" so the only hits that you get to countt are those upon youe opponent's lame vest. This does not count hits on the legs, arms or head... Epee counts the whole body as a target, and all hits count.

Still you only get a count when you hit a target, not when a target is hit, as it were. That is why when we were fighting in pairs, for fun, you could attack your poopnent or his partner, but if you scored, and the judge didn't see it, you had no proof whom you hit, and the point was not counted.

The light goes on to tell you that you have scored or had an off target hit, whgich also stops action in foil.. It does not tell your opponent that he or she was hit.

[richsc]

Yes, that will have to be reversed as the target needs to register. This is opposite from fencing where the aggressor gets feedback: here, the aggressor can't be certain but the target will be.

[richsc]

A short visit to a very unfriendly fencing academy in NoVa still resulted in few useful observations.

The lame is incredibly tough stainless steel fabric, but very flexible. The manager refused to tell me who made the jackets for them as they were unlabeled.

Foil and saber are called "open circuit" style, where each fencer has a cord from their jacket going up into the ceiling, and ending at one machine, with the sword of the attacker and the lame of the defender forming an open circuit only closed when the sword touches the lame and completes the circuit.

Epee is "closed circuit" with each fencer on their own circuit and touches rated by point. I thought I saw a foil with a tip too, so maybe they have that as well.

In fencing, the rule is whoever hits first gets the point, and then you go back to starting positions.

Thus, for us, the idea would be to have the target register the hit, as the attacker might or might not know he made a hit.

I can't see the wires for us, and can't understand why fencing hasn't tried wireless, except that they are so linear it may not really matter.

A wireless open circuit is the goal then.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

they sure are nice those small shinai!!

M.VIBM.

[richsc]

I had a thought about the outcome of combat, and it would relate to larger reenactments like Lafe. The outcome ought to have more of a whole event goal, rather than bang bang you're dead and get up again. I don't know if this has been thought of but:

For Romans, the goal of every miles is to stay alive and get rich. That is, killing a single Gaul you get their equipment /cash value. Staying alive to the end of the event and conquering Gauls gets you a share of their wealth.

For Gauls, killing a Roman means personal glory and advancement into upper society and getting to lead the group in the next fights. Could mean money if you can strip the Roman of armor and resell it.

The idea is provide a longer term incentive for the event. Since there are never enough participants, a dead participant can be resurrected as a new person, but starting over from nothing.