Fencing as a Roman

[richsc]

After the discussions about shield weight and the long stuff on needlefelt, I wondered if anyone has attempted to apply the structure of fencing - with judges and points - to Roman fighting. Putting a fencing mask on would seem to make no difference, and a judge to evaluate hits would resolve a lot of one person's word against another.

[Robert Vermaat]

Sword on sword? With my spatha, that would mean the loss of fingers! So why attempt if with blunts or needlefelt anyway?

[Martin Wallgren]

Are we talking about a kind of modern sport based on roman weapons here or a recreation of actual fightingsystems and techniques of the romans. If the later I have started a few treads on the topic here on RAT.

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ght=#94807

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic. ... ght=#53271

[richsc]

Fencing as in epee, sabre and foil. Not the loss of fingers, but a judge determining if hits have been made and arbitrating the combat. Rather like Martin describes. The judge would have to be experienced in fencing styles to be able to do a good job.

I can't see the suggestions as described here fitting the bill, since they aren't judged by third party. But a fencing helmet isn't much different than some gladiator helms, and your armor is already great padding, so no palastron is needed.
I didn't realize the etymology of epee was "from the french éspée, which was close to the Italian spada and Spanish espada" or of course the Latin spatha.

[Tarbicus]

You can dip needlefelt swords in a water solluble paint, and then it's quite obvious where the hits were. If you're using real metal swords how do you blunt the tips?

[Jeroen Pelgrom]

You could also use shinai (much safer to use, but are much larger then a spatha or gladius))

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

not if you use the smallest 36 inch measure......

the wakizashi size..........

however i would still win form any legionary with only a shinai........

M.VIB.M.

[richsc]

Fencing has touch sensitive clothing, I think, where the sword hits are registered. Lots cleaner than paint. Worn under armor hits would register in open areas. I'll have to research, but a perhaps a fencing sword with an edge that reacted to the clothing for a hit. The mask too would register hits, including getting smashed by a shield boss: for a special fencing shield the boss would have to be impact absorbing, maybe padded leather.

I was thinking about the shield too. You would think some sword hits would occasionally snag in a shield, and that would have to be figured in. Fencing is a matter of split seconds, and getting snagged could easily be fatal.
Probably could use regular shield blanks with out metal bosses, with a slip on cover and boss for fencing purposes. Various weights and sizes of shields could be tried out that way.

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Maybe Dan Peterson did something of that: we discussed the possible rules and points systems, comprising the above told ones in the old "red'n'black" RAT. If Dan is around could tell us if he continued to experiment that.

Instead of a classic fencing mask I think a hockey transparent plastic mask could work more safely to be hit in a mock battle, because I guess the hits to the face were the most frequent in the real "dense" shield by shield battles. And if you cannot hit faces with the point of your mock sword detracts reality.

Valete,

[M. Demetrius]

Roman soldiers were trained in sword only, sword and shield, spear only, spear and shield, etc. They were able to fight with all kinds of weapons from sling to mounted archer, depending on when you pick, more or less emphasis was placed on different types of fighting.

Caesar called up a hundred line legionaries from the Spanish 10th to become his bodyguard when he conferred with a Gaulic leader (leaving his Gaulic cavalry back at the camp). They showed no particular hesitation, accounts say, at being mounted. Obviously, a gladius is not much help on a horse, so they probably took hastae with them.

Probably in practice they used wooden sword and maybe cavalry sport helmets with face shields, or something like that. You can be sure there were injuries, maybe even forearms broken, shins smashed, etc. They were not playing a game, they were training to stay alive.

We, on the other hand, are not. We should all train with different weapons, though, since a spatha is handled a little differently than a gladius, for example. A parma is a different kind of shield and tactic than a scutum. Needledfelt dipped in paint is ok until the paint dries. They you might as well use wood. Tried it.

[richsc]

hockey transparent plastic mask

Visibility would be better, and they are available:
clear fencing mask

You can get electrified helmets which would count every touch, including to the face, where a clear plastic won't, although you can get those for fencing practice as well I believe. Nice thing about fencing helmets is all the ear and throat protection already there.

There are electric sabre jackets with long sleeves. There may be versions in pants, but I think legs are not a target with sabre or foil; might be with epee.

An advantage would be that there are electric scoring machines to record hits.

[M. Demetrius]

How much do you think all that gear would cost?

[john m roberts]

I'm presuming that hits on the armor wouldn't count at all?

[richsc]

The sabre undertunic would have to be modified not to react to the armor. Maybe just "arm warmers" and britches to correspond to the hit targets. I'll have to try costing this out, and find out who makes the sabre vest material.

I was thinking that segmentata and mail would score differntly as you can hurt someone through mail. Maybe it can be differentiated electrically, so that the vest and arms are different.

[Tarbicus]

What about the legs, they were a specified target for disabling cuts? Would you need to rig them up as well?