Alexander\'s Elite Illustration

[Robert Vermaat]

MeinPanzer,

Please add your real name into your signature. It's a forum rule.

[Johnny Shumate]

What evidence do we have that these javliners didn't carry shields? I would think it would be suicide to attack Persian archers(which was their strength) without something to block the incoming arrows..!


Johnny

[MeinPanzer]

What evidence do we have that these javliners didn't carry shields? I would think it would be suicide to attack Persian archers(which was their strength) without something to block the incoming arrows..!

Well, the fact that there were many psiloi and that equipping them with shields would be expensive, and that we simply don't see images of psiloi with shields often. It might be suicidal but, then again, a lot of what soldiers did in ancient warfare seems suicidal! They would, of course, be dispersed when attacking, which would allow them to not be very evident targets.

[Johnny Shumate]

Ruben,
We do have evidence of Psiloi using an animal pelt or a cloak wrapped around the arm. Simple but effective..!

Thanks,
Johnny

[MeinPanzer]

Ruben,
We do have evidence of Psiloi using an animal pelt or a cloak wrapped around the arm. Simple but effective..!

Thanks,
Johnny

Only from the Classical period, unfortunately.

[Johnny Shumate]

Dioxippus wrapped a purple cloak around his arm for defense when he dueled Alexander's officer Coragus. Although this was not a large set piece battle, it was used in other ways....
Johnny

[MeinPanzer]

Dioxippus wrapped a purple cloak around his arm for defense when he dueled Alexander's officer Coragus. Although this was not a large set piece battle, it was used in other ways....
Johnny

That may be, but unfortunately we have no references for psiloi using them at that time.

By the way, many of these questions can be answered in the book "Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars" by Duncan Head. He goes through most armies group by group and lays out what they would have most likely looked like with references to literary sources, etc. and illustrations.

[hoplite14gr]

There is no way to categoricaly deny that psiloi stopped using animal pelts after the classical period.
There is no way to categoricaly deny that psiloi could have even used captured or abandoned Persian or other Asiatic light shields like the cresent-shaped "gerron".
Throughout history troops go to great lengths to improve their protection as much as they can and use whatever means at their disposal.
The Kazanluk tomb images may well depict aristocrats or retinues or elite troops.
A wicker-type is shield is less expensive compaire to hide or metal.
Basket waving was among ancient women skills or men for that matter.
I find absurd the idea that a psilos would go into battle without some basic protection.
Psiloi are not a favorite subject in art or literature so conclusions drawn about them are not 100% accurate.
Evan if they started with little-succesful raiding or hunting could provide them with some things to use.

Kind regards

[MeinPanzer]

There is no way to categoricaly deny that psiloi stopped using animal pelts after the classical period.

I'm not doing so. I'm merely saying that we have no evidence so we can't tell.

There is no way to categoricaly deny that psiloi could have even used captured or abandoned Persian or other Asiatic light shields like the cresent-shaped "gerron".

I'm not doing this either, but if you want to get into "what ifs" you can take what little evidence we have very far.

The Kazanluk tomb images may well depict aristocrats or retinues or elite troops.

Some of the men are, like the cavalrymen and the main figures, but others clearly aren't. There are a few figures on foot who wear only a tunic and carry only the oval bronze shield, a few spears, and a romphaia, and some carry even less.

A wicker-type is shield is less expensive compaire to hide or metal.
Basket waving was among ancient women skills or men for that matter.

Yes, and there is some evidence that Philip II and Alexander's phalangites used wicker shields.

I find absurd the idea that a psilos would go into battle without some basic protection.

This may be, I don't know, but I don't think they were all equipped with shields.

Psiloi are not a favorite subject in art or literature so conclusions drawn about them are not 100% accurate.
Evan if they started with little-succesful raiding or hunting could provide them with some things to use.

Again, I'm sure they could but we have no evidence for it.

Some evidence against many psiloi carrying shields is that in descriptions of battle, some specific lights, like Cretans, are picked out as carrying shields. This shows that it was notable enough to mention, meaning that it was uncommon for them to do so.

Kind regards

[Johnny Shumate]

One thing to remember about the Agrianians: They were ELITE troops. Elite troops do not use shabby, poor-mans equipment. Throughout the history of armies and warfare, elite troops are well armed.

My conclusion would be the Agrianians were well armed with the best shields, javelins, swords and other equipment available.

We will never know for sure until an image or artifacts belonging to an Agrianian are found....

Johnny

[MeinPanzer]

One thing to remember about the Agrianians: They were ELITE troops. Elite troops do not use shabby, poor-mans equipment. Throughout the history of armies and warfare, elite troops are well armed.

My conclusion would be the Agrianians were well armed with the best shields, javelins, swords and other equipment available.

We will never know for sure until an image or artifacts belonging to an Agrianian are found....

Johnny

In this case I wasn't talking about Agrianians. They were elite, yes, along with other "high class" psiloi like the Cretans. I was mainly talking about the rest of the light troops.