Full Circle Panuela ?

[Matt Lukes]

Indeed mixing white and black wool would do it- I hadn't even thought of that :lol: Are black sheep actually common? I've never known anyone with more than regular white sheep, so I don't know if there are actually particular breeds that are dark in color...

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Yes, there are and probably they were.



Some iberian people are know because they were black sagum of undyed wool of a black race.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Concretly

Estrabo III, 7 "The men are dressed in black, taking the majority the 'ságos', with which they sleep in beds of straw [...]. This way there live these highlanders, who, as charm, are those who live in Ibería's north side; the kallaikoí, ástoures and kántabroi..... "

[Primvs Pavlvs]

The whole black wool debate is a can of worms......however I agree that there are black sheep that produce black wool.

[aitor iriarte]

And don't forget that there are also brownish sheep (karakoul breed, at least) producing brownish wool...

Aitor

[Matt Lukes]

I wonder- have there always been white sheep? I mean there've been centuries and centuries for selective breeding- could sheep in ancient times have been more commonly brown or 'black'? The main point, I expect, for wanting white wool is that it can be dyed any color- right?

[Martin Moser]

The main point, I expect, for wanting white wool is that it can be dyed any color- right?

That is certainly right, but let's not forget that white is just as well signifying your social position, I'd say. Just remember the toga candida for example. Many cultures associate white with innocence (politicians and innocence :-P P ), being in the right, being free of the need to work because of your wealth (you don't get your clothes dirty/can afford very clean ones) and things like that.

[Matt Lukes]

Ah yes, very good point Martin.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well I'm glad we've decided gray is acceptable? shock: Now I expect to be shot down soon so here goes............ :twisted:

[M. Demetrius]

Blending different fibers is as old as anybody knows, and is mentioned in the Old Testament, even. In relatively modern times, linen and wool were spun together, producing "linsey-woolsey". Modern fabric blends like polyester-cotton are produced in the very same way, and wool is very frequently blended with nylon these days for dimensional stability, and insect proofing.

In answer to the question of "Have there always been (black, white, other) sheep", of course there have, or we wouldn't have them today. To selectively breed sheep (today for white wool predominately), it's needful to have the original gene stock present.

Breeding for specific variety isn't new, either. Jacob under Laban's employ attempted to breed the particular sheep that Laban had promised him as his share of the flock (can't say I understand his methodology), but he was successful. That was something like the 14th or 15th Cent BC, some say. At any rate, it predated Rome.

[Graham Sumner]

Byron wrote:

Well I'm glad we've decided gray is acceptable? Now I expect to be shot down soon so here goes............
_________________

Well I did not come across any grey cloaks in my research but of course that does not mean they did not exist. The nearest I found was a blue grey cloak shown on a wall painting at Castellum Dimidi now in Algeria. Grey or brown trousers seem to be common on pictures of late Roman soldiers. If it were me I would stick with the yellow brown colour for a cloak.

Black clothes did exist too. One soldier shown on the Luxor wall paintings is wearing a black tunic with his yellow brown cloak. While Crassus was recorded as wearing a black Paludamentun cloak before Carrhae which of course with hindsight was later seen as a bad omen and he had to change it for a purple one.

Graham.

[Matt Lukes]

In answer to the question of "Have there always been (black, white, other) sheep", of course there have, or we wouldn't have them today. To selectively breed sheep (today for white wool predominately), it's needful to have the original gene stock present.

I meant in actual large flocks as opposed to a few individuals here and there actually- of course you have to have one to make more :wink: , but often abnormal phenotypes are rare, so my question was more whether there were stable populations way back. The way the term 'black sheep' is used, it suggests black is a rare phenotype and would thus require long-term selective breeding to create a population. Moreover white isn't exactly a normal natural phenotype- white bulls, for example were considered special because of their rarity- so I wondered if maybe sheep weren't always usually white and if that is a result of selective breeding- meaning brown and black were originally the most common phenotypes...

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Matt in my research to prove to some Viking Age reenactors that there were black sheep I found out that the Hebridian breed commonly has black sheep . I know this is not a breed that I can date back to the Roman era, but it does go back to the late Dark Ages at least.

Also it doesnt really have to be a sheep to produce "wool" there are many instances of people weaving goat, camel and even dog hair into cloth.

I know a lady who brushed her dog and spun his fur, then knitted it into a sweater. Plus I know it was common for poor Russians to make clothing from cloth of dog hair.

[marsvigilia]

Talk about putting on the dog.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well I would say it is a blue gray, as it is quite a dark gray! not that light gray navalgray colour. So......I am sticking with it! :twisted: