Full Circle Panuela ?

[Matt Lukes]

Really? I first made a semi-circular one myself and found that it was impossible to get the front vertical like that. Given that the very shape caused the edges to angle outwards when wrapped around me, any meeting partway down required a great deal of overlap at the top end. I found that only with a 270-degree circle was a clean meeting such as is seen in the sculpture achieved.

Oh- but then I was trying to get the sides to meet high up at my neck- I now see that his cloak meets rather farther down his chest- okay I take it back :lol: Perhaps it is more semicircular...

[Graham Sumner]

Matt wrote:

Really? I first made a semi-circular one myself and found that it was impossible to get the front vertical like that. Given that the very shape caused the edges to angle outwards when wrapped around me, any meeting partway down required a great deal of overlap at the top end. I found that only with a 270-degree circle was a clean meeting such as is seen in the sculpture achieved

I wonder if it was just the size of your reconstruction then Matt? Have you seen the photograph of my cloak in Roman Military Clothing 2 page 41? There is a front view showing a nice staight edge at the front but as I said it does not close very well. However the back view shows the hood and the circular draped effect you get when you pull up the sides. This is exactly as shown on Trajan's Column. Proof also that they had hoods which are not visible on the front views on the Column.

Graham.

[Matt Lukes]

No I haven't seen it Graham- I went by the Camomile Street Soldier's cloak as it was the best primary source I could find showing detail. I've just gone and played with my old cloak and what the problem is, is that the seim-circular nature means that in order to have the edges meet at the front straight as shown in the sculpture, there's a LOT of bunching around and especially at the back of my neck. Certainly because he seems to also have a scarf below his cloak, it's hard to say if the soldier's cloak is also bunched up there, but I don't see the bunching at the front or on the shoulders I do with my own cloak. That's more why I saw his as more circular. I tried to remedy this by cutting a semicircular portion out of the middle, but that just lead to the aforementioned angling of the sides and huge overlap at the top I encountered. In playing around with the design, I found that an approximately 270-degree circle fitted far better- it hung exactly as is shown in the sculpture

My cloak's measurements are virtually the same as you show in your diagram above- 3mx 1.3m

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Matt

I have asked Jasper if he can post some pictures of my cloak.

Graham.

[QFirmus]

A buddy of mine in our group said he a came across a ref that there were no button holes until medival or latter, that should be toggles and loops or buttons and loops

Any thoughts?

[Crispvs]

My paenula is pretty much the same dimensions as Graham mentioned.
After several years of frustration at not being able to get it to close or hang in the same way as the sculptural depictions, I decided to dispense with the toggles I had been using and sew up the the front for about a foot below the neck. Since then I have found it warmer and it does seem to appear more like what I see on a number of scultures. The vertical hang of the front Matt mentions is also easier to come close to, although as stated above, the weight of the material does tend to draw both sides slightly apart, forming a narrow triangular gap. The only problem I find with it is that I have to take my helmet off to take the cloak off. Perhaps this an argument in favour of the gradual decline of the paenula in favour of the sagum.
Unfortunately I do not really have a suitable photo to post of my paenula. Those I do have do not really show it in a way which would be particularly useful to this conversation.

Crispvs

[Marcus Mummius]

I'll try to experiment a bit with my paenula too this weekend.

In this (very blurry, sorry for that) picture you can see three of us wearing a paenula. Caius Titius Verus' paenula (right person in the picture) is best visible as it's not tossed back over the shoulders like mine and Quintilianus'.



Vale,
Jef

[scott]

Gents,

Thanks for all your advice. I think I'll experiment with bone buttons. Do we know if the surviving Egyptian example shows any evidence of edging/hemming etc, is it selved or simply left unfinished?

Kind regards,

Scott Goring.

[Graham Sumner]

Crispus wrote:

The only problem I find with it is that I have to take my helmet off to take the cloak off. Perhaps this an argument in favour of the gradual decline of the paenula in favour of the sagum.

I never found that a problem with mine. The Praetorian Guard seem to have retained the Paenula longer than the rest of the army, probably because it was considered a more traditional 'Roman' garment. The third century 'Carracalla', is basically a longer version of the Paenula and the Paenula itself survives into later times for example the original version from Egypt was from a late context but probably not military. To close the v shaped gap at the front a flap was added but generally the scarf would fulfill that function.

Graham.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Graham,

Is your cloak cut from one peice of cloth?

[Graham Sumner]

Graham,

Is your cloak cut from one piece of cloth?

Apart from the separate hood, yes it is.

Some of the cloaks in the recent exhibition on Manchester were finished in a variety of ways. One had a plaited edge with a highly twisted cord next to it. Another cloaks edge had been folded double and then hemmed and trimmed with a fringe. Some even had weft-looped wool pile incorporated on the inside to provide extra warmth. The cloak found in Egypt mentioned previously was woven in a dense weft-faced 1.2 twill. The seams were stitched and a single row of stitches was inserted on either side of the front seam to help keep the fabric flat.

Source: Clothing Culture: Dress in Egypt in the first Millennium AD. Frances Pritchard Whitworth Art Gallery, University of Manchester 2006.


Jef

At first glance I would not have guessed that the two cloaks on the left of your picture were Paenula types at all! Do they all have hoods?

Graham.

[Marcus Mummius]

Jef

At first glance I would not have guessed that the two cloaks on the left of your picture were Paenula types at all! Do they all have hoods?

Yes they all have hoods. Large hoods in fact We can easily wear them over our helmets. So you see that it could be very dificult to spot a paenula in the iconografic evidence 8) .

Here you can see the hood just a little bit.


The dimensions of the cloaks are +/- 3mx145cm

Vale,
Jef

[Matt Lukes]

Gents,

Thanks for all your advice. I think I'll experiment with bone buttons. Do we know if the surviving Egyptian example shows any evidence of edging/hemming etc, is it selved or simply left unfinished?

Kind regards,

Scott Goring.

Well I can't answer the specific question, but I was surprised to see that the Camomile Street Soldier's cloak has an incised line in from each edge that could be a hemline...

[Matt Lukes]

Hi Matt

I have asked Jasper if he can post some pictures of my cloak.

Graham.

Very nice Graham- have you cut a bit out from the middle or is the straight edge completely straight? Does it bunch up behind your head under the hood? The one thing I keep returning to is the hang of the Camomile Street Soldier's cloak at his neck and shoulders- to me it looks quite flat... of course I see him wearing a scarf under the cloak and not that the cloak is bunched-up...

[Crispvs]

Graham,

The reason I have to take my helmet off is that with the front sewn up the nech opening is not wide enough to allow the neck guard to pass through. When I was sewing it up I did initially leave an unsewn length of about four inches at the top of the seem but I found that it hung rather uncomfortably so sewed it up fully to the top.

Matt,

My hood is also big enough to go over my helmet and I found I had to cut a curved shape out at the centre of the edge of my semicircle to allow for a comfortable fit for the neck with the hood attached.

Crispvs