Pugio grips - why so thin?

[Tarbicus]

A thin grip is useful for a weapon used to stab with I guess, considering the thinness of an epee's grip; held out with the hand at an angle to the wrist and forearm, the space within the hand is more restricted forming a tighter diameter for the little finger to still be able to keep contact with the palm and therefore maintain a hold. The bulge in the middle of the pugio grip would mean that where the fingers form a larger diameter a hold on the pugio handle is still maintained.

[Robert]

I agree with Tarbicvs, the pugio is a weapon for a good, solid, underhand stab under the ribs. Given that function, the handle design works great, good solid guardplate to stop the hand and leave some leverage to extract. Most double edges weapons are for stabbing, a fighting knife has a single edge and a totaly different balance, rotating in the hand on the gaurd for the possibility of a two way slash. And no, I'm not a bloodthirsty fiend, just paid attention to a weapons instructor (who probably was :lol: )

[Poftim]

In my opinion, there is more than enough evidence to assume pugio handles where not wrapped in leather or cloth. This also does not make any sense at all, because once the thickness of the handle was perceived to be a problem requiring thickening of the grip, later models would have surely had thicker grips. The slight thickness of the grip should be reviewed as a given thing, for this is a good basis for further study of how the pugio was actually used (a more interesting question). Based on my cutlery drawer examination, a slight grip can be very functional. The grips om my modern day daggers are only fractionally thicker, if at all. Ergonomics derive from use, not fashion, unless the use was for ornamental purpose only, and then ergonomics are out the window anyway (try sitting in most design chairs for any period of time :lol: )

Have you ever tried holding on to a metal grip (for actual work, not just playing with it) while your hands are sweaty? Or it's raining? I have, and trust me, the handle will get covered quick. Maybe they left them thin so people could wrap them? That is my theory at least. And, if anything, it makes it more functional because you can hold on to it better.

Besides, haven't I seen some discussion on here about how to handle holding a metal piece (armor or helmets, etc...) when its hot out and that stuff gets really hot. If the dagger's handle is metal and you need it, and its hot out, guess you're going to have to find something else.

You got me on handling daggers, I've only ever used knives before. So I can't say anything about their balance.

A slight grip might be good for your cutlery for cutting steak, but could you cut that same steak the same way when it's trying to kill you, your adrenaline's pumping, your really really sweaty, the grips metal, and you've lost any and all fine motor skills?

[Tarbicus]

Well, it's obvious you're not interested in the replies, so have fun

[Poftim]

Well, it's obvious you're not interested in the replies, so have fun

I am interested in the replies, you guys have some good info. I realize that sculptures show certain things and teh things we've dug up also show certain things. But from a practical point of view, it seems like bare metal wouldn't work. I'm sure theirs a whole list of stuff, but right now I can't even think of a tool that someone uses for everyday use that has a bare metal handle.

Edit: I'm not saying you guys are wrong, I'm just trying to understand why they might have done it with bare metal.

Another thing: Why do you choose to believe this scultural evidence, but not the scultures that show something you think is wrong? (like segmentata that looks like its bending to someones body, like leather :wink: )

Please keep up the debate, or just stop. I'm not saying either one of us is right or wrong. The handle could have been made out of silicone for all we know. Anyone could say to anyone in this discussion what you said above as well.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

WOADWARRIOR?

[Matt Lukes]

:lol: Now, now- be nice.

Now I'm curious Eric- have you ever held an accurate reproduction pugio? I ask because until I did, it also seemed to me that the handles were oddly small, short, and narrow. Now that I have, I've found that it's actually not.

I've never seen any evidence or even a suggestion of it that there was any kind of wrapping around a pugio's handle and honestly can't see why it might be considered to have been necessary or even advantageous. As it is, they seem just fine to me- not difficult or uncomfortable to hold. What's more, the central bulge actually adds to the grip and wrapping of the portions above and below the central 'bulge' would negatively affect this function. Then there's the fact that the exterior plates are sometimes decorated, and certainly specifically formed with a central, axial peak- I can't see doing that and then going and covering it up. That peak adds to the 'hand' friendly' shape and also increases the grip. Sure some individuals could have done it for whatever reason, but it's simply not valid to suggest it might have been a design feature.

As for using sculptural evidence, it's a matter of it being support for or supported by other forms of evidence. We have lots of real pugiones, and the sculptures appear to be the same, therefore it's reasonable to believe the ones depicted in sculptures are accurate and that the artifacts always were as we see them now. There's no physical evidence at all of leather segmentatae, or musculatae so it's not valid to consider sculptural depictions as necessarily accurate- they can be interesting, or even compelling, but that's it. Multiple, independent pieces of evidence is the key to demonstrating anything that could involve interpretation.

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Two other things remain to be said, I believe:

1) Ancient soldiers had very probably very calloused hands, and swollen too, like any hand-digger or farm worker has, for example. That changes in some way the ergonomic behaviour of the grip. That should make more understandable so thin grips and the lack of any leather or thin ropes on the handle.

2) Maybe the pugiones were also used like short range throwing weapons, to be tossed by left or right hand indifferently, and the two knobs on the grip could help to find the right balance in the hand.

Valete,

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

try sitting in most design chairs for any period of time

Not most, Robert, just someone...
I think anyway that "most" ancient chairs were worst, brushing sado/maso:




Modern design has many merits, about that... :wink:

Vale,

[Poftim]

Matt L:
Good response by the way.

As I said earlier, I have not worked with a dagger. Thanks for bringing up that you've held one and it feels fine after you thought they were too small. That makes a lot of sense to me and I'll take your word for it.

A couple things still seem a little out of place, but that's OK because no piece of equipment is perfect and everyone has different preferences; especially in the way something is held. (Pistols come to mind) So, thanks MattL, good answer.

[Robert]

Titvs, my Italian friend, you coming from the land of smooth design and the eye for the beautifully, I'll take your word on modern "design" chairs. I was referring more to those designers who let the esthetics's of shape erode the functionality

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

It's ok, Robert!

Maybe, something like the Michele de Lucchi's "infamous" "First" chair (1983), part of the "infamous" Memphis design stream?


Or the Tom Dixon's at the same "infamous" "Pylon" chair (1991)?


:lol:

Incredibly, some designers owe all their success to a couple of crazy, but well sponsored, pieces like those... Maybe they can be better categorized like "Art", but I strongly doubt... Of course the real "good" design is another thing. And another effort... :twisted:

Vale,

[Matt Lukes]

Matt L:
Good response by the way.

As I said earlier, I have not worked with a dagger. Thanks for bringing up that you've held one and it feels fine after you thought they were too small. That makes a lot of sense to me and I'll take your word for it.

A couple things still seem a little out of place, but that's OK because no piece of equipment is perfect and everyone has different preferences; especially in the way something is held. (Pistols come to mind) So, thanks MattL, good answer.

Absolutely Eric- it may be that once you try one out that you will retain your position that it seems too small since preference is certainly something that cannot be predicted so easily. I agree that they still seem rather odd in design- since the handles of the gladius and pugio are so radically different, it does beg the question of just how much different their intended or common useages were I think. If they were to be more similar, it'd make a whole lot more sense for the pugio to have the same kind of handle as the gladius. The difference and ornateness overall makes me think that pugiones were not necessarily intended to be often-used weapons...

[Robert]

Titus wrote:

2) Maybe the pugiones were also used like short range throwing weapons, to be tossed by left or right hand indifferently, and the two knobs on the grip could help to find the right balance in the hand.

One of the worst things you can do with a knife is throw it. Once thrown, it's gone and you're left without a weapon. Throwing knives are of a totaly different design, aerodynamicly shaped, flat and usually all metal. To succesfully throw a knife takes a LOT of practice. The Romans did have a weapon for throwing, the plumbata, and when these were in use, several were carried.

I have found a fitting dagger to show the point on grips. The handle is all metal, it shows a knob at the end, too. The item is 30 years old.

ps hope this works

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Yes, sure, but I did not mean the pugio as a usual throwing weapon, of course. Especially if in a in open field battle where your army is well equipped of the appropriate throwing weapons.
On the contrary, I meant it as a usual stabbing dagger with an additional possibility: throwing it whereas you have no more resources: imagine yourself in the Teutoburg forest, small guerrilla ambushes, suddenly, you're alone, when a big german warrior runs toward you waving a long sword; the scutum you carry on your back is packed in tegimentum, rather useless. Matter of seconds: while you draw your gladius with your well trained right hand, your as well trained left hand has already throwed your pugio in the german's belly that begins to fall down just in time to be hit in the throat by your gladius, you're alive yet for now...

The central knobs are used in the modern throwing knives too:





[imghttp://www.selfdefence.com/new_knives/throwers/images/GH2011sheathknives.jpg[/img]

aerodynamicly shaped

That's an "almost" unknown concept in the ancient world, I think. Anyway the pugio is "flat and usually all metal".

Vale,