Pugio grips - why so thin?

[Tarbicus]

Poftim started a discussion elsewhere, but that was in danger of hijacking that thread. It's potentially a good discussion though, given it addresses the 'ergonomics' of the pugio grip - Why is it usually so thin?

So, I've copied the posts so far into a new topic here:

This is a little off topic, but I've been thinking about this for a while:

If the handle of a pugio is too small for the hand, could they have wrapped the handle in leather?

Several modern knife makers wrap a metal handle with para-cord and I don't see why the Romans would have used a knife with bad ergonomics when they could have just made the handle bigger or wrapped it in something.

If the handle of a pugio is too small for the hand, could they have wrapped the handle in leather?

A number of pugio handgrips have intricate, and I suppose therefore expensive, inlays on them. I don't really see why they'd be covered by leather or cord?

If the handle of a pugio is too small for the hand, could they have wrapped the handle in leather?

A number of pugio handgrips have intricate, and I suppose therefore expensive, inlays on them. I don't really see why they'd be covered by leather or cord?

But then why make them too small for someone's hand? Their sword handles weren't too small.

But then why make them too small for someone's hand? Their sword handles weren't too small.

Ever seen how thin the handle on an epee is? And I disagree about gladii handles being 'normal' thickness, some original finds look like they've gone without food for weeks.
[url:1kdd43ys]http://www.romancoins.info/d-2005%20(5).JPG[/url]

But then why make them too small for someone's hand? Their sword handles weren't too small.

Ever seen how thin the handle on an epee is? And I disagree about gladii handles being 'normal' thickness, some original finds look like they've gone without food for weeks.
[url:1kdd43ys]http://www.romancoins.info/d-2005%20(5).JPG[/url]

But again, I simply can't understand why they would make something too small for your hand?

Because they were smaller than us?

[Robert]

So off I went to the cutlery drawer and my collections of knives and daggers. 1.5 centimeters by 1 is pretty standard for cutlery, the daggers average 2.5 by 2 centimeters. (for the non-metrics 1" = about 2.6 centimeters) I think it's the balance of the whole thing that gives the impression of being a too small handle, the blades being so wide and thus heavy. When holding the pugio in a full grip, one should still be able to give a good solid stab. The knob at the back also makes for a better grip. It's a dagger, not a utility knife :roll: Perhaps we should include the blade width in the discussion as well, as there seems to be a good variety over time, perhaps the pugio changing from functional to ceremonial??

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

When holding the pugio in a full grip, one should still be able to give a good solid stab

Sure, but why getting it uncomfortable? It's strange indeed. The ancient Romans soldiers were of many races and so of many sizes, anyway the grips were all so small in general: gladii, spathae, shields handgrips, umbo rear rooms for the upper side of the hand too, as anyone of us experimented with pain... Do they have just smaller hands?

P.S. Think about the strigilis grip and imagine to use it with its very small grip and your oiled hand: so uncomfortable... Why?

Vale,

[Tarbicus]

When holding the pugio in a full grip, one should still be able to give a good solid stab

Sure, but why getting it uncomfortable? It's strange indeed. The ancient Romans soldiers were of many races and so of many sizes, anyway the grips were all so small in general: gladii, spathae, shields handgrips, umbo rear rooms for the upper side of the hand too, as anyone of us experimented with pain... Do they have just smaller hands?

P.S. Think about the strigilis grip and imagine to use it with its very small grip and your oiled hand: so uncomfortable... Why?

Vale,

But you're making an assumption that the Romans had a problem with manipulating these items. If you had been born and raised in a culture that just took them as de facto then you would probably be posting, "Why do these modern daggers and knives have such thick handles? I can't hold them properly!"

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Uhmmm..., it's just an ergonomy matter not a cultural matter: the human hand is the same since a lot and I just find strange that for about all the history of the roman army the grips and other items too were so thin and small.
That's a recent problem too. For example, take a 1920 bike and take one of our times, it's not only a matter of materials and culture, it's just a matter of people that suddenly asked themselves how they could improve the comfort of the objects they used, so they simply started to study the problem to go rational.
Designers are those people and since the Bauhaus foundation, things were always better. In few years, about 80, everything of what we use is much more comfortable than ever... Why no roman guys (and not only Romans) asked themselves simply the same questions? How should you design a 100% effective sword right now? Surely with a better grip, because you simply don't want suffer more than the necessary...

Vale,

[Tarbicus]

But they had the ability to make thicker handles, and didn't. What's not ergonomic to you may well have been okay to them. How do you know they held the pugio like you assume they do? The jury's still out on what exactly it was used for.

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Look at Probus holding his pugio:







He tightens his forefinger and middlefinger on the central knob of the grip...

Vale,

[Poftim]

But they had the ability to make thicker handles, and didn't. What's not ergonomic to you may well have been okay to them. How do you know they held the pugio like you assume they do? The jury's still out on what exactly it was used for.

But again, how do you know they didn't make the grips smaller so tehy couuld warp them in someting to make the grip more conftorable to hold. Would you rather hold bare wood or metal, or a something wrapped in leather or a cloth of some sort?

Also, another problem with making them too small is that they would have the potential to sip out of your hand. I'm sure they "white-knuckled" everything in combat and there hands got really sweaty. Even just wooden handled (proper sized ) knives are hard to hold on to when you get really sweaty.

hmmm...maybe they wrapped them also to get a better grip?

[Tarbicus]

But again, how do you know they didn't make the grips smaller so tehy couuld warp them in someting to make the grip more conftorable to hold.

Because they decorated them often, and why would you go to that trouble when you were only going to cover it in a piece of leather?

[Tarbicus]

Anyway, don't take my word for it, take it from those of the actual time:
[url:2e6l6vty]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/imagebase/FirstnameNP/lg_Pintaiusd2.jpg[/url]
[url:2e6l6vty]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/thumbs/imagebase_FirstnameNP_lg_PFlavoleiusCordusd1_jpg_large.jpg[/url]
[url:2e6l6vty]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/imagebase/FirstnameQR/lg_QPetiliusSecundusd3.jpg[/url]
[url:2e6l6vty]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/images/stories/imagebase/Unknowns/lg_UnkMilesCologned5.jpg[/url]

[Poftim]

But again, how do you know they didn't make the grips smaller so tehy couuld warp them in someting to make the grip more conftorable to hold.

Because they decorated them often, and why would you go to that trouble when you were only going to cover it in a piece of leather?

There might have been a difference between the ceremonial ones and the ones that the guys carried around. Maybe we have more examples of the fancier ones because they were a lot better taken care of and thus survived to this day.

Also, in those sculptures (is that what they're called?) they might have been depicting an officer who might have carried around a really fancy one because he was rich and not going to use it anyways. Like a lot of the officers used to have fancy grips on their pistols.

Also, where were these sculptures made? They didn't have the internet back then and the artist might have just copied what he saw in the city from the guards. The guards might have had fancier ones too because they didn't have to use it on a regular basis. (if ever)

[Tarbicus]

They are called grave stele, are portraits of real men who once lived, and they range from infantrymen to officers. The sculptors are reckoned to have copied everything from the man's personal effects, including the daggers.

Many bona fide illustrations of individual soldiers are based on such things as these, and even re-enactors reproduce them for their own impression.

Take a look at the RA.com Imagebase:
[url:y0a7gyif]http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_imagebase/Itemid,94/[/url]

[Matthew]

These are all possibilities, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, we are bound to admit only the evidence that we have. Currently, the evidence points towards Pugio's not being covered with leather or any other hilt binding. Like most other aspects of the Roman military, though, it is hard to really say more than this or equate specific examples with generalisations about the military as a whole.

Matthew James Stanham

[Martin Moser]

Maybe we have more examples of the fancier ones because they were a lot better taken care of and thus survived to this day.

Oh, come on, surely there's not a single pugio that has been taken care of by anything but worms and such for a timespan of 1600+ years

[Robert]

In my opinion, there is more than enough evidence to assume pugio handles where not wrapped in leather or cloth. This also does not make any sense at all, because once the thickness of the handle was perceived to be a problem requiring thickening of the grip, later models would have surely had thicker grips. The slight thickness of the grip should be reviewed as a given thing, for this is a good basis for further study of how the pugio was actually used (a more interesting question). Based on my cutlery drawer examination, a slight grip can be very functional. The grips om my modern day daggers are only fractionally thicker, if at all. Ergonomics derive from use, not fashion, unless the use was for ornamental purpose only, and then ergonomics are out the window anyway (try sitting in most design chairs for any period of time :lol: )