Pugio grips - why so thin?

[Tarbicus]

imagine yourself in the Teutoburg forest, small guerrilla ambushes, suddenly, you're alone, when a big german warrior runs toward you waving a long sword;

Do as you're trained to do with the gladius; the short sword is best within the reach of the longer one. No way are you going to throw it. Whether it's Kalkriese or a normal battle, you don't throw away your remaining defence. I think you're clutching at straws there.

the scutum you carry on your back is packed in tegimentum, rather useless.

Romans have fought before with the cover on their shields, even bigger shields at that. They trained with double weight scuta, so I don't see what the problem is. You're also making assumptions about how the scutum was carried, in that it can't be quickly released. To suggest the pugio is a throwing knife because of your above reasons is so unusual that you may as well not bother with the pugio at all.

And the throwing knives have two fully concave indents, and are very very thin. They're utterly different to a pugio.[/quote]

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Do as you're trained to do with the gladius; the short sword is best within the reach of the longer one. No way are you going to throw it. Whether it's Kalkriese or a normal battle,

You really cannot know, as I cannot know, it's speculative, understand?.

you don't throw away your remaining defence

If it's my last chance, I'd do it.

I think you're clutching at straws there.

I don't know how this expression is considered in english, but it does not seem it be polite nor justified, so, please, or explain or withdraw it .

Romans have fought before with the cover on their shields, even bigger shields at that. They trained with double weight scuta, so I don't see what the problem is. You're also making assumptions about how the scutum was carried, in that it can't be quickly released.

I know, I'd also take the shield even if in tegimentum, but it ask for two-three seconds, you have to drop the furca too and draw your gladius simultaneously..., you are dead in my opinion.

To suggest the pugio is a throwing knife because of your above reasons is so unusual that you may as well not bother with the pugio at all.

Unpolite as above, it seems, I understand you suggest to me not to bother with the pugio matter?. Explain soon.

And the throwing knives have two fully concave indents, and are very very thin. They're utterly different to a pugio.

Really? You are a very good observant, indeed! :twisted:



[/quote]

[Robert]

Well, that's heating up! We started off by discussing the thickness (or rather thinness) of the pugio handle. If the primary function of the pugio is a stabbing weapon, the Length and thickness of the handle resembles stabbing weapons of today. For this, see my picture of a dagger following a time-honored design.
In the case of an advancing enemy, yes, I would toss anything at him, including my helmet, if this would buy me enough time to draw my primary weapon. This is however beside the point.
Mind you, there are some strange things about the later pugio's that may even give the suggestion of Titvs merit. I have wondered about the unbalance of the pugio before, as the blade is VERY wide and all the weight is up front (as in a trowing knife).
Another explanation, one which in my opinion is as likely, is the desire to increase the cutting edge of the dagger. A wide blade to the abdomen will carve a wide swatch, doing massive damage to the internal organs. There are documented cases of people walking a mile or more with a lethal stiletto wound, dead, but not knowing it yet. This would be a good case for a wider blade.
Perhaps the whole discussion is on ergonomics derived from a given use. I am in favor of regarding the pugio as a dagger, meant for close range stabbing in situations where there is no room to wield a sword or spear.
There may be merit in the suggestion that in case of emergency, the pugio could be thrown with force, this accounting for difficult to explain elements of its design. Some solid practical research may provide hints of answers, actually, we're talking experimental archeology here

[Poftim]

So, maybe there should be some set tests to be preformed? And someone can log what happens and post pictures about it? What should be done though?

[Tarbicus]

"Clutching at straws" is not impolite. Nor was my other comment, which simply suggested that if you're going to use the pugio as a throwing knife there's no point in spending all that money on an exquisitely decorated piece, as most are, if you're going to lose it at the first sign of trouble. Arrows and plumbatae are cheap, pugiones are not. These are not guns that, once the bullets are gone, you may as well throw it at the enemy because it's useless.

To base the use of the pugio on a rare circumstance that probably rarely happened at all is not really the best approach to decide on its use, IMHO. The often seen central rib and blood grooves are a better indicator of how it was used, coupled with the ergonomics of the grip which seem (in my opinion) to be more suited for holding than throwing, stabbing in particular.

The forward weight in the blade is little different in principal to the gladius which, according to primary sources and most modern theory, has a primary use of thrusting.

If using a shorter sword than your opponent, best get within his reach. I was taught this as a teenager by members of the Viking Society, and I see no reason why I should doubt their very practiced opinion. In personal practice it also worked.

Really? You are a very good observant, indeed! Twisted Evil

Do you know the English phrase about the pot calling the kettle black?

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Robert and Eric,

There may be merit in the suggestion that in case of emergency, the pugio could be thrown with force, this accounting for difficult to explain elements of its design. Some solid practical research may provide hints of answers, actually, we're talking experimental archeology here

So, maybe there should be some set tests to be preformed? And someone can log what happens and post pictures about it? What should be done though?

Right indeed! We could easily do it. Some throwing tests with our own pugiones will can produce anyway interesting pics and videos to post here. Though I think that doing some specific training (better if using both hands indifferently) will be necessary before arriving to any result.

Jim,

Do you know the English phrase about the pot calling the kettle black?

Just informed at Goenglish, but I see you missed the case; as you also missed the whole point of the speculative side of the discussion and the chance to keep pleasant this conversation.

Valete,

[Robert]

There are some rules in experimental archeology. :wink: What this discussion boils down to is the question: "Can a pugio with a small, slender grip and knobs on the grip be thrown with greater ease and accuracy then one with a thicker grip with no knobs". The thicker grip would be the one you feel would be right if the pugio was only used for stabbing, it's primary function, in that I agree with Tarbicvs. This gives you a hypothesis, but you will need to make additional research material, like two pugio's with identical blades, but different grips.

Otherwise, its not an experiment, just seeing if you can throw a pugio, which I am sure you can. Given enough practice, you can successfully throw any hatchet as well, but its function will always be chopping wood, unless you turn the hatchet into a tomahawk, where design differences are evident to make it more functional for war than for chopping kindling (which it does just fine!). By the way, I suggest you try both underhand and overhand throw. IF the pugio had adaptations to allow it to be thrown, I think this would be interesting to see. Underhand may surprise you. The pugio when thrown should of course NOT be held by the blade (see John Wayne throw a Bowie :lol: ), because it's the handle the experiment is about. Also make note of penetration rate of the pugio's with the different handles. Have fun!!

[Tarbicus]

So far there have been two propositions:
1) The pugio grip was covered in organic material to make it like a more modern knife, the reason being that a pugio can't be held firmly in the hand because the grip is so thin and therefore is not ergonomic.
2) The pugio could be a throwing knife because it doesn't have a simple, straight grip, and has a concave aspect.

Are there any source texts, representational evidence, or archaeological finds supporting these notions?

I wholeheartedly apologise for saying you were clutching at straws earlier.

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Ok for me, I take your apologies. I'm forwarding a PM to you.

Vale,

[Robert]

I think we have already successfully clubbed option 1 to death, there is no proof or ground to assume pugio grips were wrapped, the thread also pointed to the fact that for the use as a dagger the grip was deemed functional.
I feel 2 is overstated, I think the correct formulation could be "Does a pugio have design characteristics not explained by its use as a dagger and adding a secondary function as throwing knife?". This should be well researched, any claims on basis of assumptions are pure speculation.

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

"Does a pugio have design characteristics not explained by its use as a dagger and adding a secondary function as throwing knife?"

Good. Right lane, Robert.

Vale,

[Poftim]

So far there have been two propositions:
1) The pugio grip was covered in organic material to make it like a more modern knife, the reason being that a pugio can't be held firmly in the hand because the grip is so thin and therefore is not ergonomic.
2) The pugio could be a throwing knife because it doesn't have a simple, straight grip, and has a concave aspect.

Are there any source texts, representational evidence, or archaeological finds supporting these notions?

I wholeheartedly apologise for saying you were clutching at straws earlier.

Robert said #1 has been clubbed to death, but in my opinion it doesn't hurt to try. However, if you all don't feel its correct anyways, no hard feelings here, I'll be trying it on my own anyhow.

As far as #2 goes, I think it should be given a shot. I don't know why you'd throw your weapon away, but who knows what those crazy Romans were thinking?

Discussion for #1 looks like this:


Anything else you all can think of that we should investigate about the Pugio? Maybe it was used to play Mumbly Peg.

[Tarbicus]

John Cleese being notoriously grumpy, I'd like to nominate myself for being him.