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TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 06-04-2004, 12:51 PM

**Robert Vermaat** · 06-04-2004, 01:16 PM

OK, I'm a McBride fan, but i concur - especially in his later work (Cowan's Roman Infantryman vol.2) comes to mind) all the warriors seem neanderthals on steriods! Their heads seem 'flattened' somehow and they don't look intelligent.. I asked Ross if there had been some mishap during printing, but he said that's how McBride drew the originals! 
 
Well, at least his old work was much, much better. My favorite is 'Arthur & the Anglo-Saxon wars' with Nicolle for the Osprey MAA series. I have several of the plates blown up to A3 format hanging on my walls. 
 
Antoninus, you could be a pro any time! 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert

06-04-2004, 07:25 PM

Wish I could draw that well.....

06-04-2004, 09:28 PM

Thanks Brittanicus, at least SOMEONE understands it's not easy being an Artist! 
 
We develop our skills over time, McBride included Tongue

Anyways.... 
Great drawing! Keep up the great work! 
 
Maybe I'll gety around to putting work up at some point...Although I do more birds and buildings and ships and things, not very good at people...Although I do wanna draw some armor at the Higgins and other pipe dreams Tongue

-ANDY aka "Roman Dude" Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re 
 
www.higgins.org

06-04-2004, 09:30 PM

BTW - Aitor - 
 
As for the elbows...It's called Foreshortening and one of the most difficult tricks to excecute for an Artist, esspecially when it comes to people...Limbs and things 
 
so there -ANDY aka "Roman Dude" Svaviter in Modo, Fortiter in Re 
 
www.higgins.org

06-04-2004, 10:00 PM

Ave, 
 
A fine drawing indeed. I think the scale is well represented, as well as the foreshortening. I really like his shoes. 
 
I also find McBride to be a bit on the squat neanderthal side, but he captures the spirit of a lot of these men. Lets face it, they are usually having a @#*& time when portrayed. He is also showing the effects of a very hard life. Lucretius sketch here also captures the essence of a soldier, momentarily at rest, but completely alert and ready to go kick ass at a moments notice. Bravo 
 
Vale, Quintus Florentius 
LEGVIVIVPF 
florentius.com 
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/tabulimgif.gif" style="border:0;"/>

Uwe Bahr · 06-05-2004, 04:38 AM

Antoninus, 
 
very nice painting, as well as Your former works - the bust of a legionary with one of the Guttmann helmets and the splendid reconstruction of the late Roman (Carolingian-like) helmet - I stored them all. 
 
In the meantime it seems, that others would like to show their sketches and paintings too. I think of Johnny Shumate and his fine gladiator illustrations, but may be there will be more RAT members. 
 
So a question to all - couldn't therefor be installed a permanent topic like "Show Your Roman soldier's impression", some kind of archive for those marvellous images? 
 
Uwe Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uwebahr>Uwe Bahr</A> at: 6/5/04 5:45 pm

06-05-2004, 11:59 AM

I second Uwe's suggestion entirely since I certainly am not the only one to be able to do decent sketches. 
...Most of the times, because of course, I did not post all the rubbish and the failures.. I am very good at filling paper baskets too.. 
Aitor has a point about the sleeves. Scales sleeves are probably quite rigid although I never tried. But these are not sleeves but flaps covering only the outer arm. The "sleeve" is open on the inside of the arm. 
However, come to think of it, I now consider those flaps went probably no further down than the elbow, or a bit below, thus allowing enough flexibility. But you have to sketch the damn thing to realize that.. 
Hence the usefulness of sketches. As the saying goes, a small sketch is often better than a long speech. 
All the problems of the scale cuirasses construction have not been solved, I think. We know of at least one system to construct such an armour --the Carpow example-- but from what I've sen we are still uncertain about the tailoring. Concentric or square construction around the neck opening, for instance. Both systems were probably used but as nearly always there were probably "tricks of the trade" we still don't know yet. 
A far as reenactment go, I've seen few really good looking scales cuirasses, meaning adjusted to the body and with the scales neatly aligned. IMHO, the majority of there reconstructions need some more tailoring work. 
But I won't name names.. 
About pros and amateurs: Angus McBride is a very, very good illustrator. Nowadays he's doing squat, heavyweight types, but he could as easily draw pin up girls or skinny types. And just about as quickly. My figures are 30 percent skill and 70 percent luck which means 30 percent of the time they come out of the pencil just right, and 70 percent of the time they come out of the pencil and directly in the paper basket.. 
The difference between McBride and other professionals, and me is that McBride says for instance that he is a bit afraid of drawing horses (In his book "Warriors and Warlords"). 
I am not afraid of drawing horses because I simply cannot draw a darn horse.. 
Maybe Angus is victim of his success and accepts too many orders.. But anyways I really like what he does. 
Finally, as far as I'm concerned, the best military painter ever was a guy called Edouard Detaille. 
He did no Romans, just medieval and mostly napoleonic figures, but he sure knew how to draw a horse.. 
One of his painting represents a napoleonic hussard of the 7th regiment. It's called "the point man" and it's a masterpiece of photographic accuracy. 
And yes, finally, about that "reconstruction" of a hypothetical late roman/byzantine helmet I posted a while ago. 
It is not a reconstruction. No archaeological proof of that design was ever found and it is based only on very few and very obscure paintings. 
It is not what existed. It is what could, perhaps, maybe, have existed, with a full truckload of caveats. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 6/5/04 2:09 pm

aitor iriarte · 06-05-2004, 02:19 PM

Now I've realized that the sleeves were open and, therefore, they were no sleeves at all but flaps. 
That is the correct solution, I think, but I should have seen the open sides earlier! 
 
Aitor

Uwe Bahr · 06-05-2004, 04:09 PM

Robert, Antoninus and others ..., 
 
a word to Angus McBride, he is also my absolute favorite painter, although I understand Your critics, especially in his first Warrior legionary he was a little bit lazy (as Aitor complained, too). There are only 3 real plates and 5 others that are morely sketches in my eyes. In earlier times (for example in "Rome's enemies: Gaul", "Arthur and the Anglosaxon wars", or "Scythians" or epecially for us: Concord's four marvellous books "Imp. Rome at war", "Ancient Gauls", "Barbarians", "Ancient battles") he made paintings with a full scenario, back ground and nice animated figures in the foreground - nearly perfect. Even if he sometimes "lets our eye brows rise" (Robert's words) with debatable reconstruction paintings - for me he is under the best, together with Connolly, Ronald Embleton, Graham Sumner, and so on; I am afraid, he is in his early seventies already, although he looks younger, and we can only hope that he remains in good health and does not get too much orders from other periods. 
 
If I remember right, it is projected by Ross Cowan to make a third Legionary (Warrior series) with McBride and we were asked to contribute ideas. Any positive feed back about this by Mr. Cowan - Robert, I think You kept the contact with him? 
 
Uwe Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=uwebahr>Uwe Bahr</A> at: 6/5/04 6:15 pm

06-07-2004, 10:28 AM

<img src="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/King_Romulus_petit.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
This is King Romulus, or whatever his name was. The Founder of Rome. Some things are authentic and some are hypothetical. 
Scientifically speaking this man lived in a period callled "latial phase IV" (I think..), which is the equivalent of Late Geometric in Greece, and Halstatt/Villanovan in central Europe and Northern Italy. 
Romulus' cuirass is authentic. It a poncho type inspired by an example found at Narce, Italy. 
His great antenna sword is also authentic. It may have been fitted with an iron blade by the time, since the 8th century BC was the period when iron appreared in Europe. The construction as probably full tanged but the remnants of the traditional construction can still be seen in the fake rivets on the guard. 
The helmet of Halstatt/Villanovan style is also very well attested; some of these sporting crests of impressive hights and obviously made for kings or warlords. 
The shield boss and the spears are also authentic. Some of these shields were faced with bronze sheet decorated with protruding dots like the helmet and the cuirass. seems to have been fashionable at the time. But honestly I was fed up with drawing these little dots.. 
The decoration of the shield is vaguely inspired by patterns found on geometric style greek pottery. It seems these shields wrre not yet of the Argive (hoplon) type but still fitted with a simple central handgrip. 
The standard is totally invented although I am certain that the band of sheperds/brigands/warriors and assorted misfits that gathered around Romulus on the Palatine, somewhere in april (?) 753 BC had a totem. Given what we know about early Roman/latial religion, the shewolf and woodpecker may have been these totems. Both the shewolf and the woodpecker are animals associated with the God Mars. 
Romulus and Remus claimed direct descent from Mars through their mother who supposedly had an affair with him while she was a Vestal Virgin. 
Romulus was supposed to wear pointed shoes of etruscan style but since it's the first time I actually manage to sketch decent feet, I left him barefooted... 
I am not quite sure about the curule chair. But the "seat of power", a.k.a. the throne exists in the most primitive societies. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 6/7/04 12:51 pm

Uwe Bahr · 06-07-2004, 10:49 AM

Antoninus, 
 
very nice again. Is it coincidence that the face reminds to Aitor's personal icon two comments above this? 
 
Uwe

06-07-2004, 10:55 AM

Not reallu Uwe Aitor is not as skinny as Romulus. 
Actually I tried to make it look like a guy who is reflecting about the fact that he murdered his twin brother...

aitor iriarte · 06-07-2004, 02:21 PM

Oh, in fact I got really depressed after I had to kill my twin brother and as a result I became, say, 'bulkier'.... 
Aitor

06-17-2004, 12:14 AM

<img src="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Porsenndeux.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Following king Romulus, here is an Etruscan prince. It could be the legendary Lars Porsenna. 
His helmet is an interesting mix of pot/Negau type, with decoration of pseudo-corinthian type (the eyes up front) of colored glass. A very luxurious, intrically decorated piece. 
The cuirass is a "standard" bell type, meaning I didn't copy it from an actual example I made it up. I saw real examples with the ridge at the bottom reaching absurd width. There must have been a reason. 
The lower arm guard I copied from Connolly's "Greece and Rome". Same fo the cnemides. Well, it's a brave attempt.. 
There is no archaeological example of this type of thigh guard but it appears exclusively on paintings and sculpture, whereas the example (examples?) found go lower on the thigh and are modeled after the leg muscles. It was probably very thin and clipped on like the cnemides. 
The shoes are a brave attempt again at something I saw in Connolly.. I liked him better barefoot, actually. 
The meat cleaver in his hand is called a falcata, or a kopis, or a machaira, depending whether you're Iberian, Greek or Macedonian. It sems to be an etruscan invention that spread all over the place. Some even think that the traditional nepelese kukri knife, which look strikingly similar is a souvenir from the greek inroads in Asia during the post-alexandrian period. 
I've always wondered why the Romans never seem to have used such an awesome weapon. I didn't do the scabbard for the reason that we don't really know how it looked like. 
What else.. Ah yes. The shield device gave me hell.. Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 6/21/04 12:48 pm

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