07-26-2007, 09:58 AM
Well, folks
-- a couple of days off, feeling bored, so why not revive an old thread, much to the dismay of fellow forum-users ?! :wink:
Not quite so. I read this topic only just after I got registered to that forum in April this year and my computer went down for a couple of weeks since then. So therefore please do pardon my undue delay.
Why am I answering these postings ?
Mainly because I was raised in that area.
I've been to Burg Hornberg many times, I know of this statement, saying that there was a roman watchtower on this location.
But I have yet to see a positive proof for that.
The more I learned about roman military buildings and castles, the more I've grown to doubt that statement.
On which asumption is this based ??
Traces of a building clearly dateable ?? Coinage ?? Other finds ?? :?:
Remains/traces of a roman building .
Not that anyone really knows of such a thing in/close to this place.
We have ruins from a roman farm some distance farther to the east.
And that's about it. This doesn't help the case of a watchtower so far.
Coinage.
Maybe.
Since I have no specific information how this coinage is to be dated, we have to discuss the purpose of such a building, because the romans simply did not put buildings there, where they weren't needed.
No sense -- no building.
A watchtower ?
Why should it have been needed especially HERE ??
Guarding a frontier ?? :?:
Well, before about 85-90 A.D. the frontier the LIMES was running on the other bank of the river Neckar, with Bad Wimpfen being regarded as the northmost military garrison of that line. No evidence has been found so far to justify the assumption, that at that time roman buildings were existing further northward on the left bank at all.
And why should they build a tower for that on the "wrong" bank ?! :?:
(There ARE a lot of sites more suitable for such a task on the LEFT bank of the river. But: No finds -- no valid assumptions.)
After about 90 A.D. the Romans established the so-called "Odenwald-Limes" -- but about 3 km further to the east, the watchtowers on it supposed to face eastward to serve their purpose, a thing that a watchtower on the Hornberg site could not do.
In later times the Limes was running at least 3 kms further to the east with garrisons at Neckarburken,Duttenberg, Bad Friedrichshall-Kochendorf and Bad Wimpfen. The nearest watchtower that actually existed on the limes was about 5 kms away from the Hornberg site, right in the middle between Neckarburken and Kochendorf.
And from about 153 A.D. on it was moved even farther east.
Guarding the shipping on the Neckar ?? :?:
Whereas the Neckar seems to have been used extensively for shipping
during the 2nd century, there has been no evidence that the Neckar was used as a means of transporting troops or supply under August or Tiberius.
And no signs of roman regards in that part of Germany before Vespasian/Titus for sure. Without roman military posts in Ludwigshafen-Rheingönnheim/Ladenburg or Heidelberg on one side and Heilbronn-Böckingen or Bad Wimpfen an "isolated" watchtower "further forward" would make no sense.
There are claims that the "mons Piri" fortress that Ammianus mentions in Res Gestae XVIII-II might have been a bit further forward than even Lopodunum. Some say it lays under the castle of Sinsheim-Steinsberg. (Well I have my doubts.)
To cut it short: no late roman traces here to justify the assumption of a building at that time at that place.
You see -- nothing really justifies the assumption of a watchtower there.
But the coinage ??
How come I assume that this statement was based on
the presence of coinage that inspired someone to "postulate" a watchtower there ?? :?:
As K.-J. Gilles occasionally mentions in his book "Late Roman Hilltop Settlements in the Eifel and the Hunsrück", Trier 1985 and Otto Pieper does so too in "Burgenkunde" 3rd Ed. 1912, 1993, that collections of roman coins can also be attributed to the private property of medieval castle owners. This may lead to an inaccurate dating of a place.
And with most of the past owners of the Hornberg being mostly very well educated men (don't get fooled by the image Götz von Berlichingen has gained in public !) capable of reading and writing Latin and Greek it is most likely that this coins were part of a personal collection there.
A coup of promotion ?! At least not intentionally, I think. A lot of other medieval castle sites have similar claims, too but also fail to justify them after close scrutiny. :!:
After all the Hornberg is still a very interesting place to visit or be ---- with exceptionally good wines. (So they ARE living up to a Roman tradition in a way. Salute ! Bibendum ! :wink: .) :!:
So, that would be a statement against the case of a watchtower at this place. I'm internally relieved now. :wink:
Any other opinions ?
Greez
Siggi K.
-- a couple of days off, feeling bored, so why not revive an old thread, much to the dismay of fellow forum-users ?! :wink:
Not quite so. I read this topic only just after I got registered to that forum in April this year and my computer went down for a couple of weeks since then. So therefore please do pardon my undue delay.
Why am I answering these postings ?
Mainly because I was raised in that area.
I've been to Burg Hornberg many times, I know of this statement, saying that there was a roman watchtower on this location.
But I have yet to see a positive proof for that.
The more I learned about roman military buildings and castles, the more I've grown to doubt that statement.
On which asumption is this based ??
Traces of a building clearly dateable ?? Coinage ?? Other finds ?? :?:
Remains/traces of a roman building .
Not that anyone really knows of such a thing in/close to this place.
We have ruins from a roman farm some distance farther to the east.
And that's about it. This doesn't help the case of a watchtower so far.
Coinage.
Maybe.
Since I have no specific information how this coinage is to be dated, we have to discuss the purpose of such a building, because the romans simply did not put buildings there, where they weren't needed.
No sense -- no building.
A watchtower ?
Why should it have been needed especially HERE ??
Guarding a frontier ?? :?:
Well, before about 85-90 A.D. the frontier the LIMES was running on the other bank of the river Neckar, with Bad Wimpfen being regarded as the northmost military garrison of that line. No evidence has been found so far to justify the assumption, that at that time roman buildings were existing further northward on the left bank at all.
And why should they build a tower for that on the "wrong" bank ?! :?:
(There ARE a lot of sites more suitable for such a task on the LEFT bank of the river. But: No finds -- no valid assumptions.)
After about 90 A.D. the Romans established the so-called "Odenwald-Limes" -- but about 3 km further to the east, the watchtowers on it supposed to face eastward to serve their purpose, a thing that a watchtower on the Hornberg site could not do.
In later times the Limes was running at least 3 kms further to the east with garrisons at Neckarburken,Duttenberg, Bad Friedrichshall-Kochendorf and Bad Wimpfen. The nearest watchtower that actually existed on the limes was about 5 kms away from the Hornberg site, right in the middle between Neckarburken and Kochendorf.
And from about 153 A.D. on it was moved even farther east.
Guarding the shipping on the Neckar ?? :?:
Whereas the Neckar seems to have been used extensively for shipping
during the 2nd century, there has been no evidence that the Neckar was used as a means of transporting troops or supply under August or Tiberius.
And no signs of roman regards in that part of Germany before Vespasian/Titus for sure. Without roman military posts in Ludwigshafen-Rheingönnheim/Ladenburg or Heidelberg on one side and Heilbronn-Böckingen or Bad Wimpfen an "isolated" watchtower "further forward" would make no sense.
There are claims that the "mons Piri" fortress that Ammianus mentions in Res Gestae XVIII-II might have been a bit further forward than even Lopodunum. Some say it lays under the castle of Sinsheim-Steinsberg. (Well I have my doubts.)
To cut it short: no late roman traces here to justify the assumption of a building at that time at that place.
You see -- nothing really justifies the assumption of a watchtower there.
But the coinage ??
How come I assume that this statement was based on
the presence of coinage that inspired someone to "postulate" a watchtower there ?? :?:
As K.-J. Gilles occasionally mentions in his book "Late Roman Hilltop Settlements in the Eifel and the Hunsrück", Trier 1985 and Otto Pieper does so too in "Burgenkunde" 3rd Ed. 1912, 1993, that collections of roman coins can also be attributed to the private property of medieval castle owners. This may lead to an inaccurate dating of a place.
And with most of the past owners of the Hornberg being mostly very well educated men (don't get fooled by the image Götz von Berlichingen has gained in public !) capable of reading and writing Latin and Greek it is most likely that this coins were part of a personal collection there.A coup of promotion ?! At least not intentionally, I think. A lot of other medieval castle sites have similar claims, too but also fail to justify them after close scrutiny. :!:
After all the Hornberg is still a very interesting place to visit or be ---- with exceptionally good wines. (So they ARE living up to a Roman tradition in a way. Salute ! Bibendum ! :wink: .) :!:
So, that would be a statement against the case of a watchtower at this place. I'm internally relieved now. :wink:
Any other opinions ?
Greez
Siggi K.
Siggi K.
