A question regarding a debate on Seggie vs Mail

[Tarbicus]

An armour's usefulness extends way beyond its metallurgical composition or even its ability to resist damage.

Changes in combat tactics and roles can also have influenced the phasing out of segs as more auxilia took the lead roles in battle, and the legionary "gene pool" became far more mixed with a higher rate of traditional auxiliary candidates finding themselves citizens, and less traditional citizen material signing up to the legions. We not only see a change towards the dominance of hamata, but also of the spatha, rounded scuta/clipeus, hasta.

Segs were still used by the legions for the best part of 250 years (and possibly the auxilia), so during that time must have had some advantages over hamata for troop types for a certain period. Just as likely it's a combination of factors, especially if also the fighting method of your main enemies change or are different to previously encountered.

I'm not saying what you say is wrong, Dan! But I think there is way way more to it than just that.

This last one is subjective but, IMO, with the exception of blunt trauma, mail provides just as good a defense against most threats on the battlefield.

Well, okay, I don't agree with you on that one :wink:

Here's a nutty theory: Legionaries, wearing baggy, bunched up tunics, liked segs because they didn't need a subarmalis, only shoulder padding held together across the upper chest and back? Pteryges can simply be worn from a tied cord around the waist, and threaded through the shoulder padding. The latest analysis I've seen of plate makes that feasible. Or, the subarmalis only needed to be a single linen layer? So, not only was there the advantage of segs being lighter than hamata, but the redundancy of a thick subarmalis took even more weight off their shoulders and retained flexibility, leaving more energy for stamina, manoeuvrability and speed in battle?

[ARudling]

a broken rib could potentially be fatal from a punctured lung, a broken collar bone cleaves you completely screwed in a fight & so on. .... ergo blunt trauma resistance without going to a very thick padded layer can be a significant advantage.

as for getting stabbed in the groin well i agree with Dan there, & as he says mail is definately good enough for most battlefield threats - especially with a large body shield

still seg's are easy to bodge repair in ways that you just cant with mail - ie thongs through existing holes to replace girdle leathers etc

I did like the bit in the thread about the Ermin beign the 'best' roman re-enactors out there - I'm sure many of us had a chuckle at that, or would strongly disagree - especially those of us who actually do some combat in our own armours 8)

[Trithemius]

idiots the lot of them

Ouch!

Unfortunately forums devoted to popular computer games can have problems maintaining the scholastic quality of their members;suffice to say however that some of the regular inhabitants of that particular forum would regret to be included in such a broad, and negative, categorisation - myself included.

I asked, in maligned thread,:

I am curious about the dates to which he refers, and also what kind of data is available on Roman manufacturing processes; as someone keen on archival studies are there resources like this for the Republic and Empire?

The "he" in question was Dan Howard who mentioned something about the timing of the change from one type of armour to another occuring at the same time as State takeover of the fabricae. I'm curious about the dates of this change and whether there are accessible (to person with the resources of a post-graduate university student) resources about the military economic history of the late Republic and early Empire that the people here at RAT can direct me towards.

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Hello all!

[Tarbicus]

as for getting stabbed in the groin...

Pteryges?

P.S. Hello all!

Hello John, and welcome aboard.

[Dan Howard]

Personally I'd rather risk a broken rib if it covers areas such as armpits, stomach, groin, thighs, etc., that segmentata leaves vulnerable.

Interesting, Dan. Could you refine your preferences by breaking down the circumstances corresponding to which enemies you would be facing ?

For example: in a civil war context, which is preferable - seg or mail ?

How about when facing barbarians (e.g. Dacians) ?

Parthians were primarily a heavy cavalry force backed up with mounted archers.

Are segs preferable in any of those contexts ?

Not in my opinion. Although I don't see why a hamata can't be reinforced with segmented plates if necessary.

Regarding Parthian arrows, if you search for previous threads you'll see my opinion regarding mail's susceptibility.

[Dan Howard]

still seg's are easy to bodge repair in ways that you just cant with mail - ie thongs through existing holes to replace girdle leathers etc

Mail is even easier to repair. There are surviving examples in which a piece of wire was wrapped several times around adjacent links to close gaps left by broken rings. A piece of wire is all you need to make virtually any repair to a hamata.

[Dan Howard]

Regarding the Fabricae this is a decent source from the BAR International Series 394, 1988.

Simon James, "The Fabricae: State Arms Factories of the Later Roman Empire." in Military Equipment and the Identity of Roman Soldiers: Proceedings from the Fourth Roman Military Equipment Conference, J. C. Coulston (ed.). pp.257-331

[M.ilionario]

Would not hurt if one of the experten here would throw in some hard data there. There are alot of interested people out there who just do not know any better and might even join ranks.

I found RAT because of that thread.....LOL
BTW can anyone tell me what that brown thing over his hamata is?

What is it made of and what's it's purpose?

[Robert Vermaat]

BTW can anyone tell me what that brown thing over his hamata is?

This seems like a very vague. My guess is that this soldier (who seems to wear two belts??) is fitted with what seems to be the top part of an otherwise remove paenula? Or maybe an attempt to imply leather armour? Anyway, it's more like a fanciful artist impression that based on anything real.

My two cents, anyway.

[M.ilionario]

Anyway, it's more like a fanciful artist impression that based on anything real.

Just as I thought

[NeoSpartan]

HEY Fellas!!!!!

I am one of the guys in "That Thread" u guys are talking about (same username). I am glad to see that some of actually took the time to look at it.

I was wondering if some of you guys could post some information about the subject so some of us (including my self) don't talk smack.

It would be appreciated (I certenly will )

p.s: oh that pic Ebusitanus showed... yeah its off. The guys that created that thread/s are making a Modification of the original game to make it a lot more historically accurate.

That pic is from the original game and was supposed to be a Principe (u know, Hestati, Principe and Triarii). But it is way off.