A question regarding a debate on Seggie vs Mail

[Commilito]

hi all,
I was going over the Europa Barbarorum forums and saw an interesting debate occur in this thread: the link!

scroll down a bit and you will see the debate: mail vs segmentata.

Reading it, i was suprised to see someone take the side of mail, hands down.

Any thoughts?

[Dan Howard]

We have had the same discussion here. Mail has many advantages that segmentata does not. The only real advantages segmentata has is that it is faster and likely to be cheaper to produce than mail, and it offers better protection against blunt trauma. Mail is by far the superior defense which is why it was in use before, during, and after the period in which segmentata was worn. Mail has an uninterrupted tradition of use in Europe for over 2000 years.

[Tarbicus]

I'd wait until the next JRMES before finalising any decision on this debate (which I haven't read, but have read other mettalurgical analyses recently made of Roman plate).

[claudia crisis]

I read it. Very comical.
some very challenged people out there.

Shouldnt be a case of which was best as probably both used for completely different purposes and each has its merits & disadvantages.
The one strongly against the seggie seemed to think one of its weaknesses hinged on whether the rivets were copper or bronze. Should think its more of an advantage to be copper in that it negates his arguement for ease/speed of repair - shot himself in the foot there with that one, but no-one picked him up on it.

Perhaps one of you boys may wish to post on it & set him straight on a few things - his type wouldnt listen to me anyhow being just a girlie.
But then someone that rigid wouldnt listen to anyone.
Liked the bit about how he learnt everything from talking to the Ermine Street Guard - reminded me of that old TV program Water Margin & the bloke who constantly whittled on about having had a lesson from Lin Chung (& 1 quick lesson made him an expert too).

Hilary

[ARudling]

my god there are a lot of people talking absolute shite on that link !

especially the thing about gpas between plates & getting a dagger up between girdle plates - do these guys realise how tight fitting these things are

idiots the lot of them

[claudia crisis]

Mad as hatters springs to mind!

:lol:

[Matt Lukes]

Funny how many 'experts' there are in the world :lol:

[Praefectusclassis]

Well, there are at least 914 on this forum alone! :wink:

[Ebusitanus]

Would not hurt if one of the experten here would throw in some hard data there. There are alot of interested people out there who just do not know any better and might even join ranks. I do not know enough but it would certainly be a net positive some help...even if only linking it to an existing good thread here.

My two ases

[Ebusitanus]

Someone can give a good link to an existing thread? I have registered and would place the link.

[Commilito]

i seem to recall somewhere hearing of a test in which ballistae were shot as a Lorica Segmenta at 100+ yards and some of the bolts were stopped. Any links or such?

[Dan Howard]

I'd wait until the next JRMES before finalising any decision on this debate (which I haven't read, but have read other mettalurgical analyses recently made of Roman plate).

An armour's usefulness extends way beyond its metallurgical composition or even its ability to resist damage.

Mail is far more flexible than segmentata.
Mail is more comfortable than segmentata.
Mail provides more coverage than segmentata.
Mail requires less service and maintenance.
Mail requires less custom tailoring to fit a particular individual.
Mail requires less equipment and/or spare parts to make and maintain in the field.
Mail has a longer lifespan than a segmentata.
Mail is easier to store and transport.

This last one is subjective but, IMO, with the exception of blunt trauma, mail provides just as good a defense against most threats on the battlefield.

The only real advantage that segmentata has over mail is that it provides better blunt trauma resistance and it is quicker to assemble (and hence likely to be cheaper). Segmentata is also lighter than mail but if a hamata was shortened so that it only covered the areas that a segmentata covers, the weight difference would not be that much.

Personally I'd rather risk a broken rib if it covers areas such as armpits, stomach, groin, thighs, etc., that segmentata leaves vulnerable.

[Dan Howard]

The above list can also be used to guess why segmentata was phased out. This occurred arond the same time that the state was taking over control of the fabricae. Mail has many advantages that the state would find favourable and if mass production techniques dropped the cost of mail down so that it was comparable to segmentata, the state would have no reason to continue segmentata production.

[mcbishop]

I particularly liked the post that went "Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata Lorica Segmentata" usw - that says it all really ;-)

I was rather taken with the 'artillerists theory' too; never really considered that angle before.

Mike Bishop Mike Bishop Mike Bishop

[Theodosius the Great]

Personally I'd rather risk a broken rib if it covers areas such as armpits, stomach, groin, thighs, etc., that segmentata leaves vulnerable.

Interesting, Dan. Could you refine your preferences by breaking down the circumstances corresponding to which enemies you would be facing ?

For example: in a civil war context, which is preferable - seg or mail ?

How about when facing barbarians (e.g. Dacians) ?

Parthians were primarily a heavy cavalry force backed up with mounted archers.

Are segs preferable in any of those contexts ?


Theo