Theban Army, Battle of Luectra

[hoplite14gr]

Paul I stand corrected on Pausanias.
I will check Apolodoros. Please give me more detailed reference.

Epilektoi appear in many city states from the Archaic Era.
The Alonso-Freitag book is dedicated to Epilektoi research.
Also P. Decarmes in Greek Mythology gives info that can be relαted to them
Possibly Theban Epilektoi dated from that time.
There are indications for a kind of uniform for these troops.
I am still reserching it.

Kind regards

[conon394]

For Apollodoros

Demosthenes 59/Apollodoros Against Neaera: section 94

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks for the link. It refers to beotian helmets but as I said on my previous post: The 70s excavatiosn in ther Palatean tompb yielded corinthian helmets.
My interpretation of the 4th century beotian army is that those who could aford it and the elite formations would most likely have better helmets than pilos. The metalurgists that I have talked so far say that more metal is needed for the corinthian chalkidic or attic helmets. That would made them more expensive in pre-industrial times.
So to conclude most troops of the era would get pilos for being easier to buy but elite formations would get something better than that.
Question though goes for Beotian helmet because it is expensive because of the elaborate design.

Kind regards

[lupus]

I would not necessarily disagree with respect to either the 6th century or even much or most of the 5th, but to make that argument for 4th and 3rd centuries BC, you have to ignore a fair amount of evidence.

When I'm talking about Spartans (or Lacedaimonians), I'm ALWAYS talking for the events BEFORE Peloponnesian War or at least till the middle of it.
Since the Spartans "lost" their principles (taking Persian MONEY, for instance), their fascination gone for me...

(Of course, I agree in all the examples you've wrote...)

The last bit depends a bit on the hoplites facing the lambdas, the Thebans and the Athenians may have lost to the Spartans from time to time but almost never ran without a fight.

You're talking about "Lamda" and Theban power-rising; so, you talking about events AFTER Spartans' glory - for my personal opinion...

(And again, I agree to your comments...)

Paul I stand corrected on Pausanias.
I will check Apolodoros. Please give me more detailed reference.

Epilektoi appear in many city states from the Archaic Era.
The Alonso-Freitag book is dedicated to Epilektoi research.
Also P. Decarmes in Greek Mythology gives info that can be relαted to them
Possibly Theban Epilektoi dated from that time.
There are indications for a kind of uniform for these troops.
I am still reserching it.

Indeed, Stefane. As I've wrote above, I'm talking MOSTLY about the Persian Wars' time.

Naturally, your comments are exact!

[conon394]

I certainly appreciate a person’s enthusiasm for any particular ancient culture so please don’t take the following wrong but merely in the spirit of debate.

When I'm talking about Spartans (or Lacedaimonians), I'm ALWAYS talking for the events BEFORE Peloponnesian War or at least till the middle of it.
Since the Spartans "lost" their principles (taking Persian MONEY, for instance), their fascination gone for me...

I’m not sure you can say the Spartans lost their principals, they were always it seems to me the Spartans first and winning is best. Persian money helped the Spartans win the war and fund their hegemony, what did they (the Spartans from their own prospective) give up? Just the self serving Greeks of Asia. The Spartans had never shown any interest in their freedom anyway: they were disinterested in the fate of the Asian Greeks when Persia conquered them, they refused to help the Ionian revolt, and they withdrew from Hellenic operations as soon as the Ionians started asking for a Greek invasion of mainland Asia to liberate them – Overall one has to wonder why the Greeks of Asia ever thought he Spartans really cared about them - for over a century Spartan policy was one of ‘Asia is not our look out and it has zero impact on are strategic calculations’.


There is of course the whole ‘freedom for the Greeks’ rhetoric, but frankly since Sparta did not also suddenly free the helots, I have little sympathy for any Ionian or Asian Greeks who swallowed that bit of war-inspired propaganda.


Finally can you really blame the Spartans either; they had all the evidence they needed from Athens experience that the Asia Greeks were a shifty lot. The leaders of Sparta could have had little doubt that as soon as the Athenian empire was a day old the Asia Greeks would complaining about Sparta’s leadership (or the burden of its hegemony), conspiring with fill in the blank - Athens, Macedonia, Persia or its Satraps etc.
It is ultimately hard to argue with the proposition of just selling the lot to Persia for a nice solid and trustworthy weight of gold.

[lupus]

Dear Paul...
...all these comments you wrote are very nice and I agree in 90% of them...

Also, as you may notise, I'm a STRONG SUPPORTER of Spartans; me! A totaly IONIAN guy, born in Athens, with Athenian parents and IONIAN origin!
But I'm a TRUE/DEVOTED person, to Spartans...

But!...
Since Lacedaimonians LOST their "weapon" (isolation, privacy, singularity), when they start having SERIOUS lack of citizens-soldiers (from all these years of fighting, Helots' revolutions and MOST IMPORTAND, natural disasters - earthquakes), they start "reducing" their strong law's rules, they start LIBERATING their "devoted" ("good") Helots and making them "citizens" (even, "lower-class", but STILL citizens), they start CARE ABOUT MONEY (they DIDN'T care before, all their dealing were been with EXCHANGE OF GOODS), they LOST their "Greek nationalism" (they HAD it, durring the Persian Wars) and with reference to DESTROY the Athenians... they made alliance with GREECE's enemy, Persian Empire and TOOK the Persian Gold!!!
Without these, they probably WOULDN'T won in the Peloponnesian War!
In the first part of this SO BLOODY fratricide war, Spartans didn't won MUCH! Indeed, the Athenians were the winners!
And if Spartans DIDN'T took the Persian Gold and the Athenians were NOT THAT IDIOTS - of "extinguishing" their GREATEST man, Alkibiades! - the Athenians probably would be the winners...

Anyway... The Spartans of the 4th century BC, were NOT EVEN close to the Spartans that I love! The Spartans with the STRONG LYCURGUS' principles!

Regards...

[spyros]

There’s been a recent edition in Greece for the Theban Army from “Periskopio” publishing. I’ve bought but didn’t manage to study it yet. I’ll try this evening and post some information with references.

The artwork is the usual of “Periskopio” (See black Thespian et all).

[lupus]

spyros\\n[quote]There’s been a recent edition in Greece for the Theban Army from “Periskopioâ€

[conon394]

The metalurgists that I have talked so far say that more metal is needed for the corinthian chalkidic or attic helmets. That would made them more expensive in pre-industrial times.

But I’m not comparing the pilos to those, but too the boeotian.

For example (half-way down)
http://perso.orange.fr/samuel/pages/grece.htm

I just don’t see much actual difference except in style between the pilos and the boeotian.

The 70s excavatiosn in ther Palatean tompb yielded corinthian helmets.

Again the problem here is one of interpretation. My understanding is that Marinatos decided to amend the text of Pausanias to get 3 (or better just the plataeans in there own mound) mounds since he seemed to feel the Athenians were other wise interning actual slaves with the Plataeans. The alternative view accepting Pausanias at his word the slaves were freed and either not yer fully enrolled yet as Athenians or given ‘Plataean’ status (per Hammond) and thus could not be buried in the soros since the Athenians were buried by tribes. What ever the actual status of the emancipated slaves I find Hammond’s further argument very persuasive – namely that the Plataeans would have taken their remains home, leaving the only actual remains in the mound of Slaves and Plataeans those of the freed slaves. Thus there is no problem with finding Corinthian helmets.

[lupus]

The metalurgists that I have talked so far say that more metal is needed for the corinthian chalkidic or attic helmets. That would made them more expensive in pre-industrial times.

Of course, you talking here about MODERN metalurgists; because the ANCIENT ones, all they needed was a piece of bronze - I'm talking about the "Corinthian" type...
The "Corinthian" type and any types CLOSE to that type, was a SINGLE piece of metalic helmet. It wasn't a "composite" one...
Modern people that studing the Ancient Greek Warfare, STILL can't figure out HOW they did it; how they managed to making these helmets...
Every modern "replica" of these helmets, LOOKS alike, but it's NOT alike...

The same goes for the "Hoplon" shields; many believes (and I've seen designs for creating a "modern Hoplon") that this UNIQUE Greek shield, was a combination of "wooden rings" joined together... This is a GREAT idea (and "sort-off" easy) to create a "Hoplon" shield TODAY, with all these craft's techniques...
But, in THESE ancient times, these techniques or tools DIDN'T exist!
So... there is a theory, that Ancient Greeks put together many "wooden layers" - tangle up together, they were washing the woods to be quite flexible, then they used the exterior ROUND wooden ring and... somehow (!) they PRESSED the wooden mass to make the curved shape! But STILL, they CAN'T figure out HOW the Ancient Greeks were ADDING the bronze exterior sheet, WITHOUT ANY spike to holding it on the wood!...

Regards...

[spyros]

There’s been a recent edition in Greece for the Theban Army from “Periskopio” publishing. I’ve bought but didn’t manage to study it yet. I’ll try this evening and post some information with references.

The artwork is the usual of “Periskopio” (See black Thespian et all).

Greetings Spyros...

I bought it too and "took a pick"... Looking serious research...

And yes... Since Chris Nigdiopoulos has been "Periscopio's" senior illustrator, he's making the 95% of ALL the editions, of all magazines of this Puplishing house.

I like his style, although he's a bit... excessive with some warfare's details (for example, check the special edition of "Marathon's Battle" - and study his Plateans... TOO "optimistic" weaponry, for a tiny & poor city-state...)

Regards.

Well, my library hosts all their publications regarding the ancients. I think that they do try to do the best possible research before they publish, which is a pleasant surprise considering what was the norm a few years ago.

As for the Plateans, and I’ll try to make this as short as possible since this thread is dedicated to the Thebans, I’ll say this. Pillage and ransoms. Platea was surrounded by richer city states, and being an ally to Athens gave them the opportunity to be in the winning side thus more plunder opportunities.

“Oh look all this dead bodies in armour Androklys!
Well I’ll just take this home you don’t need it any more, sorry old chap and all that”

Also the illustration of the Platean in the issue you refer to is that of an officer, also note his, even by then, archaic equipment, probably his great-grandfather took these from a dead chalkidian during the 6th century.

But you are right in some extent. Especially in the Marathon issue he went overboard with the “richness” of the armour and the equipment, they look more like persian Influencend Ionians.

conon394

It's not only about the quantity of the materials but also about work hours, Boeotian helmets needs more time to be made.



Also note the increased level of protection offered by the Boeotian compared to the Pilos (Ears, neck) without obscuring hearing and vision

[lupus]

[quote]But you are right in some extent. Especially in the Marathon issue he went overboard with the “richnessâ€

[spyros]

Oh come on! There was boud to be a rich Platean in the lot wearing an interesting armour :lol:

By the way can I use the Euboian shield you provided us as my avatar, as I'm Euboian by birth?

[lupus]

By the way can I use the Euboian shield you provided us as my avatar, as I'm Euboian by birth?

Are you kidding me???

OF COURSE YOU CAN!!!

You talking about that "Bull's head" design, with the "E Y" letters, don't you? Yeap, that's a Euboian one, but I think is a LATTER design, than a 5th century BC one...

(BTW - I have relations with Eubia; and my sister is working/living there - in the Southern area, Karystos)...

Cheers.

[spyros]

Thank you kindly. Keep up the good work