Theban Army, Battle of Luectra

[Johnny Shumate]

What did the Theban army (Sacred Band), look like at the battle of Luectra..? Phrygian or pilos helmet, bronze/linen breastplate, greaves, etc.....
Thanks,
Johnny

[conon394]

I don’t know that you can really say for certain (cant think of any good literary source with a description), but here a few ideals…

For a helmet I would suggest the boeotian style seems a likely choice. According to Demosthenes (edit Apollodoros from Dem 59) the Plataeans could be distinguished from the Athenians in Mikon’s painting of Marathon because they wore boeotian style helmets. Xenophon’s references (in ‘On Horsemanship’ for example) show the helmet was still in use in the 4th century

Trusting the evidence from coins suggests that the Thebans appear to have used some combination of the club of Hercules and maybe a ‘boeotian’ shield has devices on their shields.

In sayings of Kings and Commanders Plutarch suggests Epaminondas was dismissive of Iphicrates' new style troops (peltest phalanx perhaps???); so it is seems reasonable to suggest in general traditional hoplite equipment.

[Johnny Shumate]

I thought the Boeotian helmet was a cavalry helmet. Was it used by the infantry also..?

It also seems that Boeotian troops wore some type of boot.

Johnny

[lupus]

I thought the Boeotian helmet was a cavalry helmet. Was it used by the infantry also..?

It also seems that Boeotian troops wore some type of boot.

Johnny

Boeotian helmet was a cavalry's one, although many illustrators (even in serious publishing houses' books) used that helmet for infantry troops.
And about the boots, as I've read in many books, was one of the "marks" of the Boeotians! Only these worn boots...
Generally, Ancient Hellenes worn sandals or no footwear at all.

For Luectra's battle (a LATE of Classic Age's battle), MOST of the factions used Pylos - the ultimate cheep helmet... Boeotians used (as I've read) Pylos with plume. Of course - I GUESS, not know for sure - they used Boeotian "Hoplon"...

But, I can check it out more carefully if you like...

[hoplite14gr]

Weapons were inherited from father to son.
Many Beotians would have then chalkidic corinthian or captured attic helmets.
the cavalry would favor the beotian helmet.
Demosthenes spoke more than 100 years after the battle and perhaps he was exagerating. Corinthian helmets were found in the tomp of the Plateans in Marathon.
Many troops would wear boots. Especially the cavalrymen. Pilos helmet would be popular for reasons of cost and ease of manufacture. Check Greek footwere thread for shoes and the issue of naked feet.
Their shield designs are still under research unless you take the easy way out and copy the coins.
Kind regards

[lupus]

Weapons were inherited from father to son.
Many Beotians would have then chalkidic corinthian or captured attic helmets.
the cavalry would favor the beotian helmet.
Demosthenes spoke more than 100 years after the battle and perhaps he was exagerating. Corinthian helmets were found in the tomp of the Plateans in Marathon.
Many troops would wear boots. Especially the cavalrymen. Pilos helmet would be popular for reasons of cost and ease of manufacture. Check Greek footwere thread for shoes and the issue of naked feet.
Their shield designs are still under research unless you take the easy way out and copy the coins.
Kind regards

Indeed, Stefane... Nice comments.

[Johnny Shumate]

So we would've seen both old(Corinthian/Attic) and new(Pilos) helmets?
Johnny

[conon394]

Many Beotians would have then chalkidic corinthian or captured attic helmets.
the cavalry would favor the beotian helmet.
Demosthenes spoke more than 100 years after the battle and perhaps he was exagerating. Corinthian helmets were found in the tomp of the Plateans in Maratho

The Plateans were also buried with the freeded and enfranchised slaves so I don’t know that the arms found in their collective tomb can be seen as Boeotian per say. Yes Demosthenes (edit Apollodoros from Dem 59) was a century later but Mikon’s painting was only 20 or 30 years after the fact and the painted Stoa was one of Athens most famous public sites, I doubt he could exaggerate too much without looking ridiculous; the Stoa was not some obscure statute or point of diplomacy.

In particular I have a hard time believing that the Sacred Band would be using captured equipment, it members certainly had the resources to purchase new equipment.

Boeotian helmet was a cavalry's one, although many illustrators (even in serious publishing houses' books) used that helmet for infantry troops

Xenophon does indeed recommend it to cavalry, but I see no reason at all to say it was only a cavalry helmet. If the Boeotians liked it why not use it as an infantry helmet; with or without check pieces it seems to me it is essentially in the same category as a pilos.

So we would've seen both old(Corinthian/Attic) and new(Pilos) helmets?

I should be obvious that I doubt it. The Pilos was strongly associated with Sparta and the Peloponnesians; I doubt the Thebans would opt for that style give 4th century politics. Personally I see no reason to doubt that the best equipped Thebans would opt for the Boeotian helmet or the popular Thracian style helmets.

[lupus]

"Pilos" helmet - as I & Stefanos said - was the MOST cheep helmet you could buy in Ancient Hellas. It was a bronze "replica" of the common... hat of Ancient Hellenes! My Ancient Ancestors used to wear a wool (or baize) "Pilos", not only for protecting their head from the helmet, but also as a "head-cover" (hat) in common/daily use... Of course, they used "Petasos" hat much, but "Pilos" hat was very "widespread" in the poor class citizens...
"Pilos", indeed, was in very common use in PELOPONNESOS era. (The CLASIC symbol of Sparta, was a laurel garland, with the "Hercules'" club in the middle, two snakes facing each-other and TWO "PILOS" helmets with one star on each on of them - the symbols of "Dioskouroi", Castor & Pollux, the patron-saints of Sparta...)

But, between 7th & early of 4th century BC, most of Hellenes LOVED to using the "Corintian" type of helmet. A VERY "impresive" helmet, VERY terrifying to the opponent... but 80-90% pretty useless!
You couldn't hear ALMOST nothing, you barelly could SEE infront of you, the weight was enough to get yourself permanent nape's problems...
Even in the late years, when they made pretty good "upgrades" in this helmet (openings for the ears, larger "eyes-holes", etc.), the "Corithian" helmet was POPULAR ONLY because the SO IMPRESIVE/TERRIFYING shape it has... I worn one cheep "replica" in a store and I thought I've lost my hearing!
"Chalkidian" was more usefull; "Phrigian" also (why Phillip II & Alexander The GREAT "adopt" that type?)...

"Pilos" helmet was a... "joke"; a simple/tiny protection of the head, from slashing hits... Nothing more...

Plateans were SO POOR people (scripts saying, they fought... barely "naked"), so they would use the "Pilos" helmet...
But Athenians or Corinthians (the SO MUCH wealth people of their times), they wouldn't use that... piece of metal.

Generally guys, as Stefanos would probably wrote that long ago to you, Hellenes didn't have a "basic formula" for their weapons... You CAN'T say "hey, they loved to using 'Copis' sword much" or "hey, these fellows like a lot of using 'Linothorax'..."
Hellenes used the weaponry THAT COULD AFFORD to buy!
Was he a rich guy? He would have a SUPERB equipment! (Even in Peloponnesian War, with SO MUCH "innovations" and lack of money, ALKIBIADES worn the FINEST armor of all - as fine as RICH he was!)...

Only Lacedaimonians used to wearing SIMILAR/SAME equipment, because the STATE gave them their weapons/armors... but EVEN the Lacedaimonians in 5th century HAD SOME tiny differences in their arms - maybe more nice tunic with patterns for the Kings or the "noblemen" (from famous familly-houses), more decorations on the helmet/cuirass... etc.

You should write SPECIFICALLY which faction you want and WHICH century, to help you out - me or the GREAT Stefanos, with his large amount of knowlege for Ancient Classic Times...

[hoplite14gr]

The excavations of Marathon tomps conducted by professor Marinatos in 1970 showed 3 distinct tomps. The servants tomp yielded only dirks,sling bullets and javelin points. The Plateans tomp yielded the helmets.
Sacred band would not probably use captured equipment bur they would get the best available protection-something better than pilos helmet.
I am still researching the Theban shields. There were more emblems than the Koryne.
The Stoa painting description of Pausanias talks of Beotian shields not helmets. The modern reconstructions were done by using pottery paintings-hardly accurate!

Pilos comes from "pilima"=felt. But is as accurate as cuirrass coming from the word cuirr=leather. Popular writers associate pilos with Spartans. The Keramikos is full of Athenian stele showing warriors with pilos helms so is the Levadea meuseum. There are more stele than those photos appearing with English books as examples. Just because an artist or a maker of wargaming figures chooses to represent 4th century armies with pilos does not mean that they were all like that.
Kind regards

[conon394]

Plateans were SO POOR people (scripts saying, they fought... barely "naked"), so they would use the "Pilos" helmet.

Plataea was small, but does that equal poor? Plateans had the luxury of farming on the Boeotian plain, I don’t know that they can be seen a necessarily poor. Lacking opportunities for wealth via international trade no doubt kept Plataeans from have a lot of extremely rich aristocrats, but that is not the same thing as the Plataeans of hoplite status being poor (en mass that is compared to another state).

The only literary reference I am aware of where Plataean hoplites fighting naked/ unarmored/semi-armored is Thucydides 3.32.2 and following. I think it is rather clear that the arms and amour of the Plataeans are very much dictated by the nature of the operation: that is trying to launch a surprise night-time breakout attempt against a vastly superior force and escape to Athens, not by poverty.

"Pilos" helmet - as I & Stefanos said - was the MOST cheep helmet you could buy in Ancient Hellas. It was a bronze "replica" of the common... hat of Ancient Hellenes! My Ancient Ancestors used to wear a wool (or baize) "Pilos", not only for protecting their head from the helmet, but also as a "head-cover" (hat) in common/daily use... Of course, they used "Petasos" hat much, but "Pilos" hat was very "widespread" in the poor class citizens...

In its most simple form the Boeotian Helmet was similarly for all practical purposes the same a simple helmet modeled on a hat. I don’t see how would necessarily have been significantly more expensive than a Pilos.

Only Lacedaimonians used to wearing SIMILAR/SAME equipment, because the STATE gave them their weapons/armors

Not the only example. Dionysius I equipped at least parts of his army with state equipment. Considering elite units like the Argive eilektoi or the hieron lochon of Thebes were trained and perhaps maintained at state expense, and operated as discreet units, it seems not to improbable to suggest they had some sort of standardized equipment.

Depending on how you choose to interpret the evidence from Thucydides the Athenians may or may not have used the thetes as marines and who thus would have to be equipped by the state, before the population crunch of the plague.

Generally guys, as Stefanos would probably wrote that long ago to you, Hellenes didn't have a "basic formula" for their weapons... You CAN'T say "hey, they loved to using 'Copis' sword much" or "hey, these fellows like a lot of using 'Linothorax'..."
Hellenes used the weaponry THAT COULD AFFORD to buy!
Was he a rich guy? He would have a SUPERB equipment! (Even in Peloponnesian War, with SO MUCH "innovations" and lack of money, ALKIBIADES worn the FINEST armor of all - as fine as RICH he was!)...

I certainly don’t think my original post ever suggested there was a Theben uniform as such.

edit

The Stoa painting description of Pausanias talks of Beotian shields not helmets. The modern reconstructions were done by using pottery paintings-hardly accurate!

Unless I’m either missing another reference in Pausanias or am just badly misreading it at 1.15.3 I see no reference to Boeotian shields but merely Boeotians from Plataea.

Thus Pausanias does not seem to contradict Apollodoros (dem 59.94).

[lupus]

Nice comments, fellows...

Plataea was small, but does that equal poor? Plateans had the luxury of farming on the Boeotian plain, I don’t know that they can be seen a necessarily poor. Lacking opportunities for wealth via international trade no doubt kept Plataeans from have a lot of extremely rich aristocrats, but that is not the same thing as the Plataeans of hoplite status being poor (en mass that is compared to another state).

The only literary reference I am aware of where Plataean hoplites fighting naked/ unarmored/semi-armored is Thucydides 3.32.2 and following. I think it is rather clear that the arms and amour of the Plataeans are very much dictated by the nature of the operation: that is trying to launch a surprise night-time breakout attempt against a vastly superior force and escape to Athens, not by poverty.

I agree... But I'm pretty sure that I've read in SO MANY different books, about the poorness of Plateans... What I've read is what I wrote, mate.

Code:

In its most simple form the Boeotian Helmet was similarly for all practical purposes the same a simple helmet modeled on a hat. I don’t see how would necessarily have been significantly more expensive than a Pilos.

More metal parts, perhaps? That's why... A "Pilos" helmet, was a one-piece simple bronze cone.

Code:

Not the only example. Dionysius I equipped at least parts of his army with state equipment. Considering elite units like the Argive eilektoi or the hieron lochon of Thebes were trained and perhaps maintained at state expense, and operated as discreet units, it seems not to improbable to suggest they had some sort of standardized equipment.

Depending on how you choose to interpret the evidence from Thucydides the Athenians may or may not have used the thetes as marines and who thus would have to be equipped by the state, before the population crunch of the plague.

Wasn't I say the same? You wrote some perfect examples of EXCEPTIONS. Part of Dionysius' army, part of Argive's army ("Epilektoi"), the Theban "Ieros Lochos", etc.

But THE WHOLE army wearing same "outfit"? Only the Spartan army... (Not even the Spartan King wasn't different from the rest of the Hoplites. So... like I said, only the Lacedaimonian army was with a "unique & similar" look.)

certainly don’t think my original post ever suggested there was a Theben uniform as such.

And certainly, I wasn't refer to your original post; I just wrote something usefull for everybody...

Regards...

[conon394]

And certainly, I wasn't refer to your original post; I just wrote something usefull for everybody...

My mistake, sorry…

Wasn't I say the same? You wrote some perfect examples of EXCEPTIONS. Part of Dionysius' army, part of Argive's army ("Epilektoi"), the Theban "Ieros Lochos", etc.

But THE WHOLE army wearing same "outfit"? Only the Spartan army... (Not even the Spartan King wasn't different from the rest of the Hoplites. So... like I said, only the Lacedaimonian army was with a "unique & similar" look.)

I agree a whole army uniformly equipped was the exception, but I was just trying suggest that it seems to me there is room particularly by the 4th century to look for hoplites who are not completely individualistic in uniform/dress given: the proliferation of standardized shield blazons, the possibility of regional preferences/ styles and, regular units that because of the fact they trained and drilled together might have had used or been issued with similar or identical state provided gear.

[lupus]

Dear Paul, from my experiance and the tones of book I've read & own, I've learn this:

Ancient Hellenes worn "outfits", with TOTALY PERSONAL preference.
Like MANY historic wrote, if you could "flash-back" through time and join a Phalanx, after the first few minutes of the battle start, you WOULDN'T be able to understand WHO is the enemy and WHO is your "brother-in-arms"!!!
Indeed!... Only the Spartans had that... "fine idea" (of course, I'm kidding, I ADORE them!) of "expose themselves", by wearing ALIKE outfits, cloaks, colors, etc.
Of course... they were NOT IDIOTS! They KNEW PERFECTLY, the... "fear factror"! ALL knew that Spartans were the most SUPERB infantry in these Times!... So, imagine an army, marching in a field and... suddenly facing a full-bronze-covered line of Hoplites... dressed in RED!
Next step? FLEE AWAY!!!

As I've read in many books, Spartans won several battles WITHOUT a nose bleeding! The enemy FLEE instantly, when they saw them...

Regards...

[conon394]

Ancient Hellenes worn "outfits", with TOTALY PERSONAL preference.
Like MANY historic wrote, if you could "flash-back" through time and join a Phalanx, after the first few minutes of the battle start, you WOULDN'T be able to understand WHO is the enemy and WHO is your "brother-in-arms"!!!
Indeed!...

I would not necessarily disagree with respect to either the 6th century or even much or most of the 5th, but to make that argument for 4th and 3rd centuries BC, you have to ignore a fair amount of evidence.

For example:

Xen. Hell. 7.5.20: Epaminondas has his cavalry whiten (paint?) their helmets a uniform color. His allies adopt the club symbol on their shields – to match the indicated uniform use of the club by the Boeotians. It seems the Boeotiarchs at least did have authority to dictate symbols for their troops.

Xen. Hell 4.4.10: The hoplites of Sicyon are indicated as using a sigma blazon on their shields.

Xen Anab.1.2.16: Cyrus’ Greek mercenaries also wear something of a standard uniform.

It also seems to me it is worth considering two additional points to what extent the example of Athens and pottery depictions overstate diversity of uniform. Athens as a democracy rather limited the power of officers in the field and state imposed rather fewer controls on individuals than most Greek states (I believe it was Xenophon or maybe Plato who noted the Athenian hoplites were relatively undisciplined, and compared poorly with the navy which demonstrated a high degree of structure and discipline). I also wonder about pottery evidence; to what extent does pottery represent artist preference vs. reality? In particular say attic pottery, where the painter likely did not come from the hoplite class, and arms and amour were rarely carried in public.

Only the Spartans had that... "fine idea" (of course, I'm kidding, I ADORE them!) of "expose themselves", by wearing ALIKE outfits, cloaks, colors, etc.
Of course... they were NOT IDIOTS! They KNEW PERFECTLY, the... "fear factror"!
ALL knew that Spartans were the most SUPERB infantry in these Times!... So, imagine an army, marching in a field and... suddenly facing a full-bronze-covered line of Hoplites... dressed in RED!
Next step? FLEE AWAY!!!

The last bit depends a bit on the hoplites facing the lambdas, the Thebans and the Athenians may have lost to the Spartans from time to time but almost never ran without a fight.

Since the late 5th century and 4th century appearance of Epilektoi (at Argos, Thebes, Athens etc) almost certainly represents a recognition by other Greek states of the benefits Sparta gained by having a truly professional hoplite phalanx – I would suggest they would also have noted the benefits of a standard uniform. After all, would not the Thebans have wanted the average aspis holder across the field to know they were facing the Sacred Band – the men who beat the best of the Spartans - twice.