My Story from the Pompeii Amphitheater

[tlclark]

Gofreddo:

And the germans were actually quite close to it (few hundred meters if I recollect). The germans did make their defense line go thru the monte cassino hill and were evidently quite oblivious to the fact that this would have exposed the abbey to danger of severe if not total destruction.

This has been my impression as well. In WWII, a few hundred meters is nothing to an artillery position several miles away. The Germans enjoyed the technical advantage of the Allies restraint without having to technically violate the abbey itself.

I also know it wasn't a hasty decision and went up the chain of command several times. Clark agonized over it.

However in my profession, more consideration is given to the bldg than the people sometimes.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

Travis

[tlclark]

I almost cried in frustration when I saw/heard what damage has been done to the historical remains recently in Baghdad (in museums etc.)

Haven't yet time to read the article, so I do not know what exact stance the author takes, but he tried an evaluation of the damage done:

The Casualties of War: The Truth about the Iraq Museum

I haven't read that one but I attended a lecture by this guy:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/158234 ... 49?ie=UTF8

Basically, a lot of the claims of the loss of the Baghdad museum was exaggerated and a lot of it was an inside job by museum employees. The real tragedy wasn't the Museum, it was the national library. It was burned down destroying hundreds of unique muslim, christian and persian manuscripts!! Comparatively, most of the Museum losses have been recovered. The library is a genuine tragedy and very few people have heard about it.

Travis

[Eleatic Guest]

Another Goebels master piece was Dresden, but that is another terrible story (see recent book by Taylor).

How much of a master propagandist do you need to be, if a city overcrowded with refugees is attacked with incendiary bombs and the 'official' military target, the railway lines are not even hit, all while tens of thousands civilians die in fire storms.

If anything, then Coventry was an exceptional masterpiece of allied war propaganda, because the one time German bombing of a city full of military industrial complexes (500 casualties) served well throughout the war as the legitimizing reasons for the militarily senseless bombing of the residential areas of dozens of German cities (hundreds of thousand casualties). After all, the Germans started it...

"Monte Cassino: the story of the hardest fought battle of world war two" by Matthew Parker, 2003
He makes no exaggeration regarding it the hardest fought of WW2.

I have not read the book, but I can say categorically he did. For me, the title of the book looks suspiciously in line with the still harboured Anglo-Saxon self-belief that they were the ones who won the war. Actually, at the Ostfront, there was a Monte Cassino fought every two miles the whole length between Berlin and Moscow and back. This is where the real WW II took place. If I am not mistaken, in Italy, at the time of Monte Cassino, only a couple of German divisions were stationed, while at the same time in Russia over one hundred! In Italy the Allied did not get through and at the time D-Day finally got underway the Soviets were already standing in the suburbs of Warsaw...you get the picture...

[Praefectusclassis]

"In WWII, a few hundred meters is nothing to an artillery position several miles away."
I don't mean to detract from the argument Travis, but during the last days of the battle of Arnhem, British XXX Corps batteries at Nijmegen were able to accurately put fire on German positions barely outside the British held perimiter at Oosterbeek, some 15 kilometers further north.
This fire was so close that there's anecdote that one certain battery had one badly sited gun. After the first three rounds arrived, the airborne's had to duck, for the last shell fell short, almost on their lines.

Nevertheless, putting defense lines in the hill put the monastery at great risk, that's obvious.

[Robert Vermaat]

Before, in Monte Cassino, birthplace of the Benedictine Order, the German commander actually contacted the Allied Forces and offered to leave the monastery unmanned by his troops, in order to spare it from fighting and destruction. If true, this was no small feat, because MC, situated on a steep hilltop, occupied an immensely important strategical point. Despite this, the Allies bombed the then still unoccupied place, and only afterwards the German troops moved in the rubbled place and the real battle of Monte Cassino began.
Perhaps somebody can verify these stories.

I've read this account more than once so in my opinion it's correct.

But don't forget that even though the Germans did not destroy Paris, it was Hitler's intention to do so.

[tlclark]

This fire was so close that there's anecdote that one certain battery had one badly sited gun. After the first three rounds arrived, the airborne's had to duck, for the last shell fell short, almost on their lines.

Exactly making my point.:wink:

It's only as accurate as the information you have.

Travis

[tlclark]

Another Goebels master piece was Dresden, but that is another terrible story (see recent book by Taylor).

How much of a master propagandist do you need to be, if a city overcrowded with refugees is attacked with incendiary bombs and the 'official' military target, the railway lines are not even hit, all while tens of thousands civilians die in fire storms.

Well I think it's well past the "do not use by" date to start refighting this battle but what the heck. The destruction of the Frauenkirke and the many art treasures of Dresden was a huge loss.

But that's war.

Everybody misquotes General Sherman from the American Civil war. They all think he said "War is hell" when in reality what he said was "War is all hell" meaning that there was no sense to prolonging it by making it prettier than it really is by rules or restraint. The truth is, if you show restraint, that's exactly where your enemy will hide or exploit you. The south never would have buckled had Sherman not made his march to the sea and left a swath of destruction behind him.

I'm not defending war crimes mind you. There is a huge difference between the firebombings of the Dresden and the Holocaust I think we can all agree. But some tragedies and atrocities are just flat out inevitable.

The firebombings of both Dresden and Tokyo remain some of the most controversial decisions of WWII. Curtis Lemay said he fully expected to be brought up on war crimes charges if America lost the war for what he did to Tokyo. The reality is that that is exactly where war leads once you start. By pretending otherwise, I think you actually make war MORE likely, not less.

[Praefectusclassis]

Ah! But the distances were less than 'a few hundred meters' :wink:
I'll grant you it probably was an exceptional situation with some very good shooting overall.

[Goffredo]

Hi guys. If you are REALLY interested in the Cassino episode, then read the book I suggested! Then we can speak again about it and maybe enter issues of how well the historian did his job.

Regards Dresden let me first say that I find it terrible, tragic and well documented that the western allies conceived and carefully exceuted fire-storm bombings. Dresden was not the first case!

Regards russian front and russia at war my humble sources are Overy. I've also read other books on strictly military aspects. Lets say that I consider myself at least not to be ignorant or completely misinformed about the war on the russian front. With all my admiration for the courage and the resources of the russian soldier and the sufferings of the russian people, I feel the issue of who won the war (US vs USSR) at best a little naive, but I feel I am free to think it is propaganda just as much as you think "hurray-US-of-A" is and was. But, in all frankness, I feel it a more dubious, because the russia of stalin was a terrible example of totalitarianism and what humans can do to one another in the name of ideology. If you say hurray for USSR's achievements then how do you distance yourself from the other things that characterized the USSR under Stalin and especially in those terrible years? Is it possible to explain the terrible suffering of the russian soldier without keeping in mind that human life was of little value for the stalinist ideology?

Russia and germany were mortally at each other's throats. Indeed we in the free west should be happy the russian army broke hitler's back in the east. If that is to reduce to fairer proportions the military victory of the western democratic armies in the west, then allow me to rejoice even more for the victory of the western democracies in the cold war.

But we mut continue to think! Speaking of propaganda the Dresden episode was masterfully taken over and further manipulated by the russian and communist propaganda when the cold war broke open. A factor five if not ten increased the casualty count and the military importance of dresden disappeared. Its interesting to consider the history of ideas. If you have time and true interest in these matters then read the Taylor book and maybe we can open a thread on Dresden too. That is if you get thru reading it! You might feel misplaced and put it down as soon as you read things that rub you the wrong way. Its the risk of seeing something from a new perpective. You actually get the impression that the USSR wanted Dresden bombed as it was a hub for their front.

[Arthes]

Greetings Virilis

I almost cried in frustration when I saw/heard what damage has been done to the historical remains recently in Baghdad (in museums etc.)

Tears were actually in my eyes ..... sadness for all that had survived for so long, to be damaged in so short a time...as well as for the humanity involved.
Meaning no disrespect for those brave men and women who are out there fighting - modern warfare destroys too much compared with that of old. I would rather face a Spartan's sword than a rocket launcher...and if I had to die, feeling it was with some honour.
(I am a daughter, grandaughter and g.g niece of artillary gun men and women on one side of my family...they are the ones I know of)
regards
Arthes