Opinons on Needlefelt battle?

[richsc]

Essentially, Lafe is a wargame. But how do you tell who wins/loses, if that's part of the point of the exercise? That is, how well did you do it? Seems like there's a need for rules and referees.

The individual sport of wargames is fencing. Evolved from practice for a real duel with the intent of maiming/killing to an extremely skilled sport. There is no fear of dying but there is a fear of losing.

The entire needlefelt debate misses this point, so maybe this is a call, not for the formalization of needlefelt weapons, but for the formalization of the rules into a fencing model, which will lead into rolling up of wargames rules set in a reenactment environment.

[rusty myers]

Yes, I agree, I posted a long thing on the AD43 page about keeping scores and such, and how to be resurrected and assaults, but it involved a judges or two. Unfortunately we only have one tactical a year at this point, so development will be slow. Perhaps more will come about.

Remember, we are all new here in the states to this needlfelt stuff,and it will take time to figure it out. I have been to ACW Tactical events (where no viewing public is allowed) and where regular army officers accompanied the troops and determined who was shot and where. It was great, but there were criticisms of the system, and look how many ACW Reenactors there are!

We will figure it out if we give it a fair shot. It is a new world for those of us who want to go beyond counting stitches and into the experimental archelogy phase of re-enacting. Ever try to fight in a bronze breastplate? I have... and I see why the grunts opted for mail!

[Caius Fabius]

I have noticed that a great percentage of the people who don't like Needlefelt, and who have many criticisms about the system haven't ever picked up a needlefelt sword and waded into a melee. Somehow it reminds me of a bunch of virgins complaining about sex. :lol:
Even the people who stand on the sidelines and watch don't get a "feel" for the needlefelt combat. I have done live steel, choreographed and unchoreographed, but it takes trust and practice. When you only are meeting for a weekend or two each year, the live steel "trust" factor is impossible to create, even if you are friends and trust each other in different areas.

I say, if you haven't done it, don't be telling those who have done it how wrong they do it! Dr. Ruth is no virgin! :lol:

[richsc]

Not too many folks recover from serious sword wounds, say an arm chopped off or artery pierced. You just don't get this sense when doing needefelt or iron or whatever; that's a basic premise no amount of whacking about can overcome. I don't need to have experienced needlefelt to know I'm not going to get killed or maimed doing it. That's why fencing and wargames involve rules and judges. I agree that this needlefelt/wargaming experience is just getting started, so there is working out period, but if you don't have the discipline of death and dismemberment in there eventually, it's just so much SCA whacking.

I'd also like to see the same fencing rules applied to Celts, Greeks etc, so combat styles could be compared and matched more realistically.

[Robert Vermaat]

We will figure it out if we give it a fair shot. It is a new world for those of us who want to go beyond counting stitches and into the experimental archelogy phase of re-enacting. Ever try to fight in a bronze breastplate? I have... and I see why the grunts opted for mail!

Hi Rusty,
Well, if you set it up I say go for it!
As for myself, I think that this method is only of limited use for the 'experimental phase of re-enacting'. In my humble opinion, some parts of military life we can never re-enact. But even 'safe' fighting is still 'safe' and will never get close enough to reality to resemble a scientific/archaeological approach.
By that I mean not the testing of clothing/armour/equipment under battle circumstances. that will come close enough, but for that you need no needlefelt approach. No, my comment is about the danger of battle which will (of course!) be missing from this 'combat'. I fear that some overlook this and see the 'battle' as a surrogate for the real thing.

Remember the Ostia Antiqua 2003 event? Great stuff! Dan Peterson in command of several Italian legions in real combat! Similated pila, hand-to-hand fighting (it looked a bit phalangial to me 8) ).
But in one video shot (I don't think it's on that site) you see one legionary 'tickle' the neck and then the private parts of his opponent (who does not seem too much bothered!). That's where fun begins and science stops - you just can't have it both ways.

Have fun! But don't pretend it's science.

[Neuraleanus]

There's been some interesting responses. Let me summarize:

1. History: Needlefelt originated in Europe, but from the responses I gather that no group there still uses it. Is this correct? If so, why? Could a differing legal environment be the reason? From the few pictures of Junkelmann's gladiators that I've located I cannot tell whether they're using steel or needlefelt weapons and I do not read German.

2. Training: Both needlefelt and steel require the training of participants. It's a matter of degree, not of kind. Steel based systems require certification prior to participation. In addition, the use of steel may be more choreographed than needlefelt.

3. Rules and Safety: I realize that the needlefelt system in the USA is still evolving. So far rules for required safety equipment have including: face masks, eye protection, groin protectors, and joint padding. There is also the issue of recognizing hits. The compliant nature of needlefelt weapons presents its own problems in this regard. Both needlefelt and steel leave some portions of the body off-limits. This gets back to issue 2. With all its faults, the SCA has established a successful fighting system. They sacrificed historical authenticity for safety. The danger of any fighting system, from the point of view of historical reenactment, is that fighting alone becomes the end-all.

[On soap box]Some have made the claim that I'm totally against mixing fighting with reenactment. Nothing could be further from the truth. With the increased interest in roman battle recreation, some important questions need to be asked. I stepped on some political toes and that got some people angry. I'm not the politician. As a roman reenactor, I do not want to see the roman reenacting community head down the path that the SCA followed. Standards must be maintained.[Off soap box]

Disciplina deberi conservavit

And by the way, we should all learn latin! Over the last six months I've taken it upon myself to do just that. Greek would be good too, as it seems that at least in the first century, the rule for the most part seems to be, speak Latin, but write Greek. To my knowledge, all of the books found at the library in Herculeniam are in Greek, not Latin. Lingua una tempore!

[jkaler48]

Needlefelt weapons are still in use at the Lafe Cash of Iron event. They have been redesigned to be both safer and more (very ) realistic looking.

[Flavivs Aetivs]

I never liked the name "needlefelt" though. Sounds prickly.

[Alanus]

Well, however it goes, I hope reenactors find something less goofy than needlefelt. When I was a kid-- about century ago-- we played Cowboys & Indians, child's-play that was far more realistic than nf.