Opinons on Needlefelt battle?

[Neuraleanus]

Well I just received a taste of what Matt Amt had to go through as I apparently offended the deus needlefeltis (RULE OF LATIN: if unsure, make it 3rd declension) by my statement of an opinion that he did not agree with. Iste suggillavit meum modo solito eius. But lets not talk about that. I'm curious:

1. While attending the recent Fort Lafe event I saw that needlefelt battle played a significant part. Now I did not see all the needlefelt action, but on at least one occasion the romans ran out of the fort after the Celts with needlefelt swords in hand and the battle quickly degenerated wild melee of needle felt bashing. All discipline was quickly lost. Now normally when the romans got together they marched in fine formation. It seemed that when the needlefelt came out, so did any sense of reenactment authenticity. Maybe this was just an isolated observation. As I said, I did not see all of the needlefelt battles. What has been other groups experience attempting to accurately portray roman maneuvers with needlefelt? Maybe the guys at Lafe simply needed more training.

2. There is the issue of safety rules. Though it had been requested, no one wore eye protection. Then again, the needlefelt pila that I saw were not too effective. I get the sense a layer of safety rules will eventually transform needlefelt combat into something very much like present day SCA combat. All that it takes is one lawsuit. How do others see this trend progressing?

3. Finally, the deus needlefeltis informs me that groups in Europe have been using needlefelt for some time now combined with accurate reenactment. I will not drop the same names that he did. What has been the experience of the European reenactment groups?

As an aside, I've deliberately placed this message in the off-topic folder. I'm not yet at the state where I can call anything to do with needlefelt reenactment.

[Tarbicus]

Weight could be a factor. I did live role playing as a teen, including sword training from a couple of Viking Society members, but when it came to a rumble using the foam swords anything went, and some of the battles had up to forty people (well, 20 people and 20 orcs). If the needlefelt is much lighter than a gladius then natural instinct would probably take over, and the urge to bash the other guy as quickly and as many times as possible would take over. Added weight could help as it would take more effort and reduce the amount of silly whacking? One thing we had were referees who would call a wound, death, or no hit, which actually helped keep things in check.

Also, the absence of the threat of punishment for breaking an oath not to leave the ranks may have something to do with it. If everyone had to sign away their human rights and hand their lives over to the centurions (or referees) beforehand, maybe things would stay a little more disciplined :wink:

[Los456]

I'd imagine that a large portion of the issue is chalked up to lack of training. Anyone on this list can be a past master when it comes to knowledge on how Romans fought but if they haven't trained in it then they most won't be able to do it effectively in mock combat. Legionaries trained constanly, in order to make their manner of fighting work. There's an old army addage which is true throughout all time:

You train as you fight.

If one gets their dander up in a fight, mock or otherwise, then discipline will invariably break down and the individuals will fall back on what seems right to them.

You can see plenty of SCA events where units of experienced fighters can maintain a good shieldwall despite heavy combat with much more dangerous and damaging weapons than needlefelt. (and in teh midst of combats that include over a thousand fighters) And you can see other units where the guys break down into individual melees and get chopped or or whatnot.


With regards to safety equipment. I know there are those that will denigrate the use fo safety equipment as eroding away at the realism. It seems to me a small tradeoff if you can then start really exploring how the romans fought manuevered and fought at the century level without getting individuals seriously hurt.

In my military experience using simunitions (Small paintl rounds fired through your real weapons) for room clearing drills, while it require a paintball mask, still brought you the most realistic training, together with live fire room clearing drills.

This is similar to the ARMA sword fighting schools of thought that to really understand the craft they have three methodologies that compliment each other:

1. Use of wooden swords to work out the moves, sometimes with an opponent but not at full speed or combat.
2. Boffer type combat to work out the moves against an opponent at full speed.
3. Live steel against a pell.

So to me a reenactment unit that was really exploring fighting techniques would have a program that included:

1. Individual work with live steel or wooden rudis (and pila throwing) against a pell working uo to doing it in full equipment.
2. Formation work just movingin different formations
3. Long distance marching and then rolling right into formation work.
4. 1v1 combat training with needlefelt or bofer or some other training weapons
5. Force on force using whatever methodology above.
6. And of course the static dsiplays as most do them now.

But honestly unless you are working on a Roman movie set going through the basic training, who has the time for all that?

Though I do see on some of the sites and on here some of the guys out in CA working somewhat to this type of training a little at a time.

It would be awesome (though it's a pipe dream I'm sure) to see fairly realistic roman reenactments rise to the level of some sort of combination of a Civil War reenactment and an SCA combat event, but with that Roman reenactors attempt to make things more realistic and authentic too.

[Caius Fabius]

I only witnessed three of the "needlefelt battles" at Lafe. I didn't see them all.

I do have photos and videos of the ones I witnessed. In the photos, I can see some people wearing protective goggles, some are not. Some of the best clear plastic goggles are almost invisible. I handed out sets of goggles to some people who wanted them. I guess when you are over 21 and have signed a waiver and signed the rules, if you don't want to be safe, it is your decision. I suspect they will be much more safety conscious next year.

I didn't even understand why the Romans ran out of the fort to attack the Britons, tactically. It all boils down to this.... many of the people came to the event because they wanted to "fight" and do Roman re-enactment. While we don't know always how Romans fought , either in very close formations, or in looser formations, I did not see any well trained teamwork among the "Roman" forces. I think the needlefelt could become more realistic, especially if there was more emphasis on force on force combat practise, and less on "square bashing and fancy stepping".

Needlefelt or wooden swords.... Most folks have to go back to work, and can't spend several days in "light duty" in the "barracks" after a re-enactment event. Wooden swords would leave a lot more injuries, than the needlefelt, if you train like the Roman did, (according to Josephus). Sometimes compromises have to be made IF people are determined to have "hand to hand" combats. Actually, Combats were not an everyday part of Roman military life, and to be a authentic, the Roman soldier would spend much more time building stuff, guarding stuff, and collecting stuff, than killing "badguys".

Many of the people wanted to do square bashing (ie fancy drill and ceremonies) but did not want to do any actual combat practise. I saw only a small part of the training being used on actual pilum practise, none on needlefelt combat practise, and due to the time constraints, there were no practise posts and double weight wooden swords. The gate was finished only a day before the event. One note, when the "legionaires" were told to actually do Roman soldier work, digging, building and such, they were too tired from marching and patrolling, or whatever to help emplace practise poles, let alone do anything else.

My experience is jaded. I find that most people who have actually been in the military, are not very interested in pretty marching for the sake of marching, while people who were in Drill teams, Marching bands, ROTC or whatever, and marched as a social or youth activity, find it much more important. Folks who have been in the infantry (or any combat branch) for a few years, just don't care about the parade ground "dancing".

Needlefelt has a place for some folks, but it doesn't make an immersion event, for me. However, if the majority of folks want to do that, then let them! At a big event, people who don't want to do that should be in a different group, and actually be doing what real Romans did, and at Lafe, there are lots of construction tasks that could use the manhours. They need people to bake the bread, chop firewood, carry water, clean the barracks, polish armor, build targets, fix the walls, build the praetorium, dig a well, guard the gate, and so on .... I am sure there are plenty of immersion tasks that no one was inclined to do.

Is this needlefelt merely a "Dan Peterson" thing? No. While he borrowed the system from Dr. Junklemann, people would not be doing it, if they weren't enjoying it. The whole idea is that Roman re-enactment, like any other hobby, is about enjoyment, unless it is your job. I actually respect the fellows from LEG II AVG at Lafe more, for doing real Roman re-enacting, building a fort is much more "real" than beating on people with needlefelt swords. Different strokes for different folks. Just because all people don't like the same stuff, does not make either group "wrong".

[Los456]

Sidebar I find it curious that this discussion is in the off topic bin...

[Praefectusclassis]

As an aside, I've deliberately placed this message in the off-topic folder. I'm not yet at the state where I can call anything to do with needlefelt reenactment.

[Neuraleanus]

Needlefelt has a place for some folks, but it doesn't make an immersion event,

My point exactly! Isn't the point of roman reenactment to recreate what the romans did? Now I concede that needlefelt might be a of that, but I came back from Lafe thinking that many of the people attending merely wanted to bash each other. You can join the SCA and wear plastic armour for that.

Is this needlefelt merely a "Dan Peterson" thing? No. While he borrowed the system from Dr. Junklemann,

This is news to me. I was not aware the Dr. Junklemann actually invented needlefelt weapons. From Dan's postings I had gotten the opposite impression. This begs the question, how did Junkelmann employ needlefelt?

Sidebar I find it curious that this discussion is in the off topic bin...

It all depends upon what needlefelt battle evolves into. In my mind the jury is still out.

[Caius Fabius]

Is this needlefelt merely a "Dan Peterson" thing? No. While he borrowed the system from Dr. Junklemann,

This is news to me. I was not aware the Dr. Junklemann actually invented needlefelt weapons. From Dan's postings I had gotten the opposite impression. This begs the question, how did Junkelmann employ needlefelt?


Dr. Junklemann employed it for simulated combat involving Roman Legion living historians including Roman Cavalry living historians, as mentioned in some of his books, and in magazine articles. Dan Peterson was a member of this group, as I understand it. I brought the system to the USA a few years ago (1998?), using some weapons I obtained from Dan Peterson, and other people thought it was interesting, although others may have also brought it into the USA about the same time. It was an alternative to SCA combat, where people could wear actual armor, instead of SCA stuff. Protective eyewear was added when we introduced missile weapons. While the missile weapons are farby, you cannot recreate Roman military combat without having pila IMO.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

for those interested I have a training regimen I have been on for 5 months. I set up a full roman training facility in my large yard, posts, bags to attack, targets for missile weapons etc.

I train 2 and 1/2 hours a day, 3 if you count the run beforehand. 6 days per week, taking sunday off, unless I have duty with the city unit at Ft. Wayne, then I get bayonet practice anyway.

on mondays to get back into it I do a missile weapons only day, besides 15 minutes on the practice post. for the next 5 days I do 30-45 minutes on the missile weapons. after this I do 10 minutes on the post gladius only, then 5 minutes shield strikes only, then I do both, attacking with full gear for 1 hr., I then take 30 minutes ofr a warmdown of light attacks in the air. to this might be added hasta training with it used as a hand weapon.

this has increased my effectiveness at portraying a real roman soldier, and also keeps me in tip top shape.

when I have a sparring partner we go double weighted wooden weapons, usually for at least 1 hr, or until somebody bleeds fairly heavily. This is, I would say, the best training.

of course other members do varying things, tiberius attacks boxes in his living room, others report success with just attaccking the air and imagining a human.

[Los456]

BTW I love discussing this subject...

Sounds like good stuff there TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX!

Yes just like real military training no one activity is be all end all, a mix of various techniques, attacking the problem from different angles is definately the best way to go.

Now if you cold put together a century of guys to do this then that would be something to see!

RE: Fighting at events:

I would imagine that the units involved would first and foremost have as a goal portaying accurate formations, commands and combat techniques. So it's less all out fighting for the sake of fighting (You could have a closed event for that, than it is education so perhaps more choreography is in order.) Again ACW guys do this all the time. The units meet the night before, sketch out the battle, who's moving where and when, how many casualties are gong to be taken and the even hand out casualty chits to the individual soldiers to determine who gets killed or wounded ahead of time. While it's not to the level of making a film the units themselves are well trained enough to carry out the intent of the event coordinator's vision and pull off normally a respectable show. No need to reinvent the wheel.

ACW units also have "closed" events where they have a large piece of land and units fight it out in a more free flowing battle that is not scripted.

I'm going to go out and speak heresy here but I think that the SCA type heavy list combat can provide a good starting point for one aspect of full on fighting. (Let me say that I am not in the sca but have seen plenty of events) I see occasionally Roman-themes units there or at things like dagohir and sometimes with lots of guys 20-30 sometimes).

There are rules for missile weapons,i.e. pila, rules and techniques for casualty accountability, etc. There are some modifications made to equipment for safety purposes, i.e. many fo the Roman SCA guys have "roman-appearing" helmets with face protection and some also wear lorica-segmentata. Obviously there are more equipment peices such as leg protection, boots, arm protection, modifications to the shields which are required. But the vehicle of large sca battles is a perfect one to try out the techniques of order communication, formatino movement and changes, line relief and other things. It can be an interesting experimental environment to figure out ways the romans could have done this or that.

But of course, most reenactors can't afford the time or money committment to collect a whole 'nuther set of combat gear let alone go through the certification process required to get you fighter's card.

Some comments for Caius:
"Needlefelt or wooden swords.... Most folks have to go back to work, and can't spend several days in "light duty" in the "barracks" after a re-enactment event."

Hence the need for thinking through safety equipment and procedures. Somehow SCA guys can fight it out in full force with weapons and blows that can easily kill someone not safely equippped and while injuries still happen, most of the participants go to work the next day,. heck that applies to any activity, (e.g. I play hockey three times a week)

RE: conducting camp or garrison activities: I think you hit it on the head well. Even at ACW events they don't just show up and fight, the majority of the time is spent on camp life and various mundane activity like turning out for guard duty inspectinos and what not. It's all god.

It just would be nice to see Roman reenactment move on to the next level. I think without organized fighting at events we will not see the participation rise to the level where you can regualrly see century or cohort level amounts of guys at these events.

[Neuraleanus]

Again ACW guys do this all the time. The units meet the night before, sketch out the battle, who's moving where and when, how many casualties are gong to be taken and the even hand out casualty chits to the individual soldiers to determine who gets killed or wounded ahead of time.

To my understanding, the guys running Lafe do not want anything prearranged. This might be part of the problem.

I'm going to go out and speak heresy here but I think that the SCA type heavy list combat can provide a good starting point for one aspect of full on fighting.

This is fine, but do you really want to go down this path? The risk is that the fighting becomes the end-all and reenactment is forgotten.

conducting camp or garrison activities: I think you hit it on the head well. Even at ACW events they don't just show up and fight, the majority of the time is spent on camp life and various mundane activity like turning out for guard duty inspectinos

I would like to see more of this.

I think without organized fighting at events we will not see the participation rise to the level where you can regualrly see century or cohort level amounts of guys at these events.

Maybe. Perhaps there needs to be room for both those who want to perform serious reenactment and for those who want to fight. The fighting however needs to be put under strict limits. The fighting cannot be allowed to degenerate into wild bashing sessions. Disciplina deberi conservavit.

[TFLAVIUSAMBIORIX]

battle ready units have to be made up of people willing to train though. My comrade tiberius can attest to how strict a disciplinarian I have to be to keep these guys going.
Also, you have to have semi in shape people. otherwise you get a slow battleline, which is fine for many things, but for combat, or combat maneuvers and patrols, or long marches doesnt work.

[Los456]

"I would like to see more of this."

Yeah I'm surprised you don't see a reenactment event where even if there is no fighting they have a pell set up and part of their show is to have guys go through a sample training regimen for the legionary which includes pell work pila throwing and what not. Even that would be cool. (I haven't seen one but I'm sure some guys do this...)

"The fighting cannot be allowed to degenerate into wild bashing sessions. Disciplina deberi conservavit."

It would definitely make the guys look stupid. A unit participating in such action should practice train or work out what they are doing ahead of time to avoid a poor impression. Again ACW does this without making themselves look stupid no doubt due to how well an average unit runs or governs itself. (though I'd imagine when they first started out they had similar problems.

[Iosephus]

Avete!

John, that's what I call Training Day(s)! hock:

I like this topic very much :wink:

If you allow me, I would like to share my experiences as well. I fear it would be quite long but I will take my time.

Our group Legio I Adiutrix, located in Hungary ( www.legiobrigetio.com ), exists since 2000AD and during the past years we get involved most ancient era events regularly held during the country. There are 4 to 6 performances in a year where we simulate combat with a fellow re-enactment group called S.A.G.A. ( www.middleages.hu ) whose members act as celts or germans.
Depending on the size and importance of the event we have 6 to 18 combatants per "side" that means normaly a total number of 12-40 combatants or even more (we are usually outnumbered).

First about our training:
We try to train regularly once in every two weeks or at least once in a month. One part of the training is pure physical training (running, wheight lifting, gymnastic) other part is formation/drill and "combat" training.
Drill training means moving in formations semi-equipped (no armour only weapons and scutum) and trying to keep the line as much as possible while performing different kinds of manoeuvres. If it's possible we do it under "field conditions" on uneven ground (I can tell you I hate muddy fields in spring).
Combat training means, well, everything you mentioned before:
swordplay on wooden column with rudis
swordplay against each other (individually or in formation) with rudis
pila throwing at target
mock pila throwing at each other (use your scutum if you don't want to get a black eye)
sometimes some wrestling
fully equipped semi-contact combat with metal swords against each other (our gladii are of course dull) - there are surprisingly few areas on a fully equipped legionary which can be hurt seriously :wink:

And besides these of course we do marching:
at least once per year a "long distance" march and several smaller ones.

I'm a member since 2004 august and I could participate only in one long distance march (15 km in full gear) but, as Charles noted previously, I was so exhausted by the end, that it took me 2 hours to recover myself to be able to walk more then 100 meters at once.

Small marches are usually combined with regular training:
5 km marching "crosscountry" then, after having some rest, drill & combat training with some ad hoc cooking (only using materials brought with us on foot) and finally a 5 km marching back to the "base".

After a training I used to feel stiff for 3 to 4 days.

Our enemies:
S.A.G.A. originally was founded as a historical fencing club/society. Afak there were even some discussions with John Clement about S.A.G.A. being the official ARMA affiliate organization in Hungary. Finally things go the other way, because S.A.G.A. people didn't want to refuse participating on re-enactment events (as ARMA members do). They have several sub-divisions, from ancient era until high-middle ages. Most of them are more skilled "fighters" then us (they practise a lot more).

Our Battles:

Field battles:
We do very similar to ACW. Before the battle we come together and agree who will "win" and also discussing the general script which is usually the following:
-we form two lines against each other (ours is usually two ranks deep)
-there's some negotiation between the two sides
-when the negotiations fail (of course) the battle begins with exchanging throwing weapons (mock pila/javelins)
-after we ran out of missiles the barbarians charge our line and after some fighting (whith some casualties) they withdraw
- repeat it 2 or 3 times
- then comes the final charge, the loosing side is massacred, the leaders (chieftain/centurio) flogged and executed.

The actual hand-to-hand fighting is carried out by steel weapons, semi-contact, no coreography.
According to our experiences if we form a tight formation (20-30 cm from scutum edge to scutum edge) then it is very easy to "stay alive" even in the front ranks. Those scutums are really useful to hide behind and eventually making quick short thrusts against the man to the right (who doesn't pay attention to me because he is fighting against a colleague on my right side, and what's more his unarmored body is totally defenceless because his shield is on his other side :lol: ). During all these fighting keeping formation is critical. IMHO a heavy legionary on his own is no match for a lightly armoured opponent who has the space required to outmanoeuvre the clumsy scutum, especially if his weapon has a longer reach then a pity gladius.

Some pictures (you can find a lot more in our webpages):
http://www.legiobrigetio.com/images/fel ... av0516.jpg
http://www.middleages.hu/fellepesek/savaria2005/159.jpg
http://www.legiobrigetio.com/images/fel ... av0505.jpg
http://www.middleages.hu/fellepesek/savaria2005/94.jpg
http://www.legiobrigetio.com/images/fel ... av0507.jpg
http://www.middleages.hu/fellepesek/savaria2005/156.jpg
http://www.legiobrigetio.com/images/fel ... qu0507.jpg

I can't stand it but this is one of my favorites:
http://www.legiobrigetio.com/images/fel ... om0512.jpg


If you have read all this I salute you! :wink:

I intended to write about defending our camp and fighting against combined horse archers/infantry but I'm writing this post since 2 hours and I got tired.
But if you are interested I can continue...

[Iosephus]

Just one more thing:
maybe 2009AD could be the perfect opportunity to organize a big scale roman battle re-enactment (like ACW and the guys from the Sealed Knot do) somewhere in Germany...
:wink: :wink: :wink: