parma

[Marcus Mummius]

Those arguments I can accept :wink:

I don't want to advocate the parma being flat in the first century AD. The only point I disagreed with is that the Illerup finds can be used as evidence for dished parmae in the first century AD.

A round leather shield cover was found in Holland I believe. This is another piece of archaeological evidence we can use.

Vale,

[caiusbeerquitius]

Yes, you are right, I was saying less than I thought. The Illerup finds are of help in finding out what the angled flange means, and therefore are of help in defining the function of the angled flange in the first c. so:

qualitative analysis => quantitative analysis => temporal & geographical analysis => result

I just left out steps 2-4 in my argument....

[Gaius]

I think you are basically right with all these data, Christian. Thanks, i've learned a lot with this thread... D

[Marcus Mummius]

I think you are basically right with all these data, Christian. Thanks, i've learned a lot with this thread... D

As is very often the case on this board, we've learned that the educational (or miseducation) force of reenactment (or living history, or however you want to call it, don't want to start that discussion again lol) cannot be underestimated. Things get copied without much, if any, personal research and wrongly become facts in the minds of a lot of people.

If you take a closer look you'll often notice how little we know for certain. Too much data is missing, or has been destroyed by mistreatment.

Vale,

[Gaius]

As is very often the case on this board, we've learned that the educational (or miseducation) force of reenactment (or living history, or however you want to call it, don't want to start that discussion again lol) cannot be underestimated. Things get copied without much, if any, personal research and wrongly become facts in the minds of a lot of people.

Of course Jef, I was referring exactly to that ...I was wrong in the first place because I have seen always the round parmae as a universal thing among reenactors, and I never asked myself about the actual evidence for it until I have wanted to get a parma myself.

Valete

[caiusbeerquitius]

Anyone an idea about that round shield cover, maybe a drawing, someone?

[caiusbeerquitius]

I just made a small list. If you see any mistakes or have any add-ons, please post.

Standard bearers and musicians on Trajan´s column:
Scene 4&5: both, infantry, oval/round shields carried on the left, same size as infantry shields.
Scene 6: Standard bearers only, cavalry, large oval shields
Scene 8: Standard bearers only (musicians on the left belong to the suovetaurilia), no shields(?)
Scene 15: Standard bearers and an aquilifer, infantry,Rectangular shield belonging to the aquilifer(?) standing on the floor in front of them
Scene 19: both, infantry,standard bearer(s) with oval shield(s)
Scene 20: Standard bearer, infantry, with oval / round shield
Scene 34: Standard bearers, infantry, with oval shields, same size as the infantry shields
Scene 36: Aquilifer, infantry, with oval shield, slightly smaller than infantry shields
Scene 37: Standard bearers, infantry, with oval shields in a camp
Scene 38: standard bearers, infantry, without shields (?)
Scene 41: both, infantry, cornicen with round / oval shield
The triumphal scenes are not of interest here.
Scene 77: Standard bearers, infantry, no shields visible
Scene 79: Standard bearers, infantry, no shields visible
Scene 81: both, infantry, only the standard beares seem to carry oval shields, about the same size as infantry shields
Scene 95: both, infantry, no shields visible
Scene 97: standard bearers, infantry, no shields visible
Scene 98: standard bearers, infantry, oval shields of the same size as the infantry shields
Scene 103: standard bearers, infantry, oval shields of the same size as the infantry shields

If I combine this with the other evidence above, I´d say that a curved (like the Kasr-El-Harit) or dished (like the Dura Europos) shield board about the same height as a rectangular scutum, or slightly smaller, would be rather what we are looking at here. it seems to be hung on the soldier´s left side with a sort of a belt, which enables the soldier to either carry it inclined under the left armpit, with the left arm resting on the shield, or vertically, covering the left side, as protection.

[Gaius]

How could an aquilifer bear the aquila while using a standard infantry shield? Maybe they did not bear scutum at all while moving with the aquila in display, but used standard scuta for battle...

[Marcus Mummius]

How could an aquilifer bear the aquila while using a standard infantry shield? Maybe they did not bear scutum at all while moving with the aquila in display, but used standard scuta for battle...

But he had to bear the aquila in battle too...

[Gaius]

Yes that's true... :? ? roll: :roll:

[M. Demetrius]

Are we concluding that the relative small size of the shields in the gravestones is an accurate depiction of the size of the actual shields? Some of those look so small they'd hardly be any protection at all, at least to me. Could they not be shown small simply because of artistic convention?

[Gaius]

But still rounded and dished shields are depicted, despite of size...

[jkaler48]

Auxillia Parma
Grandson William AGE 10

John Kaler
MSG, USA
Retired
Member LegioV (Tennessee)

[caiusbeerquitius]

Are we concluding that the relative small size of the shields in the gravestones is an accurate depiction of the size of the actual shields?

Rather not:

If it in fact was smaller may be discussed, since it quite often happens, that shields are displayed way smaller than the findings suggest they actually were.

same size as infantry shields.

Rectangular shield belonging to the aquilifer(?) standing on the floor in front of them

same size as the infantry shields

slightly smaller than infantry shields

about the same size as infantry shields

oval shields of the same size as the infantry shields

If I combine this with the other evidence above, I´d say that a curved (like the Kasr-El-Harit) or dished (like the Dura Europos) shield board about the same height as a rectangular scutum, or slightly smaller, would be rather what we are looking at here.

And:

Some of those look so small they'd hardly be any protection at all, at least to me. Could they not be shown small simply because of artistic convention?

Difficult to say, but basically I would agree. Look at The helmet in the upper right corner of the first tombstone in my post above. It will hardly fit the guy´s head. Displaying shields way smaller than they were has a good tradition in Greek, Hellenistic and Roman Art.
BUT if shields actually WERE smaller, it´d be hard to tell the difference...

[Peroni]

Unknown 3rd c. AD standard bearer from chesters carries a Whatthehellisthat

This is the Batavian standard bearer from Carrawburgh.

In my experience of making shields, I have often obtained bosses that have this angled flange due to the spinning process, but have no trouble fitting them to flat boards.