Thorsbjerg Sagum Card-woven Rims

[caiusbeerquitius]

Here a better pic of the broad rims:

[tlclark]

Neat. I love the tight twisted fringe.

It's very much like the kind we see on pteruges.

I wonder if they were covered by tablet woven bands.

[Carlton Bach]

I don´t think that the sagum has a germanian orign.
We know such garments form the greek and the etrusker. I wrote an Artikel about "Rechteckmäntel", but only in german language, sorry.
May is possible to use an translation-program on internet.

Do we even know what made a sagum a sagum? I mean, we have na idea of the general shape and size and the way it was worn, but do we have any clue by which criteria a Roman woulds have decided whether a certain rectangular cloak was a sagum or not? I am currently looking into the byrrus vs the paenula, and I must admit it's not at all clear to me where the difference lies. Perhaps there is some category of weave, cloth thickness, fabric treatment or pattern that we simply don't know that was of Germanic origin?

edit: Sylvia, is that you? If so, I believe I owe you copies of the En Gedi textiles publication. :oops: :oops:

[FAVENTIANVS]

Yes, you can see me wearing the one by Holger Ratsdorf in my picture to the left.

However, I am trying to get members of my Legio interested in sagums.

Which is your legio? Where is it based?

[Meles]

I´m sorry but read once moore some books about textiles - there is no difination off "sagum".
In june would like to finish a new artikel about those sagum/"Rechteckmäntel". I will ask a frind of mine to tranlate it into english.

Volker, that is right: Sylvia Crumbach. meles meles is the name for badger in latin

[aitor iriarte]

Let's revive this thread!

I am going to make a late IVth/Vth century (AD, of course! ) court chlamys.
I've got the fabric, a woollen herringbone twill from Cacaius (It would have been better a thinner one but it is difficult to match the quality/price ratio :roll: )
To shape the chlamys I must cut it into an oval outline. This operation will ruin almost every trace of selvedge. It is clear that I must 'finish' the cut edges in some way. This is not a poll, but opinions will be warmly welcome:
1. Just make a reinforcing selvedge seam using the same thread.
2. Trim it with a narrow modern plain trim.
3. Trim it with a card woven trim. No fringes are pictured on these mantles and, would the card-woven trim follow properly the curve? :?
Thanks in advance!

Aitor

[Franklin]

I don't see any reason why the card woven (same thing as tablet woven?) trim would follow the curve any better or worse than modern trim.

I've actually been meaning to ask you this question for some time. How much evidence is there for the use of card/tablet woven trim within the roman era? And how much evidence that it was actually used BY the romans?

The reason I ask, lots of people doing IV/V cent impressions have started throwing card woven trim all over their clavi tunicas. Is this just out of frustration because we can't achieve the "woven in" decorations that are most accurate, or is there actually some basis for it?

In theory, I could actually see this taking hold in the western empire with each successive generation after the fall. The STYLE and SHAPE of the clavi segmentae might remain, but the tapestry weaving technology might become scarce and barbarian influence be on the rise. Am I completely making this up?

[Robert Vermaat]

I've actually been meaning to ask you this question for some time. How much evidence is there for the use of card/tablet woven trim within the roman era? And how much evidence that it was actually used BY the romans?

Hmm, interesting question.

The reason I ask, lots of people doing IV/V cent impressions have started throwing card woven trim all over their clavi tunicas. Is this just out of frustration because we can't achieve the "woven in" decorations that are most accurate, or is there actually some basis for it?

Frustration. Modern trims look fine while you are progressing from the 'monochrome patch' phase to the next, but if you can't embroider or weave your own patterns, modern trims just don't look real enough. I use them for my kid's tunicas, but for my own I want something better. Card woven trims are at least looking more original. I will try (don't laugh) copying original patterns onto linen instead, as Aitor has succesfully done in the past.

In theory, I could actually see this taking hold in the western empire with each successive generation after the fall. The STYLE and SHAPE of the clavi segmentae might remain, but the tapestry weaving technology might become scarce and barbarian influence be on the rise. Am I completely making this up?

Yes and no. I think the style and shape also changed if you look at Anglo-Saxon, Frankish or Bavarian clothing from the 6th c. But maybe they just away from 'Roman' fashion (which we see continuing those shapes during that time)?

[Franklin]

Agreed. SO much frustration!

I was thinking about it, and really, our monochrome patches are probably even less accurate than Aitor's copied ones. Here's my reasoning. We know from evidence that elaborate clavi/orbuccili were often removed from worn out tunicas and stitched onto new ones. But what would be the point in going to the trouble just to remove a solid patch? If we're just talking about solid stripes and roundels, wouldn't it be just as easy to weave an entirely new garment with the solid patches integrated in?

I think we all agree that putting together the technology to weave entire clavi tunicas with elaborate integrated decorations might be a bit ambitious at the moment. But what about a smaller loom to just recreate the decorations themselves? Maybe start with simple geometric patterns or something? They would still have to be sewn onto the garment separately, but at least they'd be a more accurate representation.

Aitor, sorry to hijack your Sagum thread! Perhaps we should split off if the discussion warrants it.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

For some trims, please look here:

http://www.pillagedvillage.com/cgi-bin/ ... d=T5JMmNU5

I think some of them could be used for our period. What do you think?

[aitor iriarte]

I spent yesterday out and I didn't read your posts :oops:

Franklin,
Tablet-weaving was used as a way of finishing neatly the borders of textiles (And arranging the starting-border on the vertical looms), and probably only secondarily as decorative. Therefore, using it as stop-gap, would-be clavi is as (in)accurate as using trims can be :wink:

Thanks, Cesar! At first sight, Trims 262, 288, 118 and 315 could be useable. Anyway, with lineal trims there is always a problem (ranging from slight to huge!) when you try to finish the end of the clavus to a pointed or, much worse, a tear-drop leaf!

UPDATE. I've found blanket-fabric 280 cm wide, therefore I can make the mock-up chlamys in one piece!
A pity that I'll need a seam for the 'real' one!

Aitor

[caiusbeerquitius]

Sylvia Crumbach, a renowned German textile specialist argues here that card-weaving was probably and etruscan invention. So even early Roman clothes may have had card-woven rims. See tomba Francois and tomba dei leopardi, no other reasonabl way to get those decorations, also the imported textiles from Hochdorf were decorated in that way. Important: The only way of decoration for any Roman clothing ist parallel stripes. No fancy Viking patterns and so on...


No!


No!


No!

[caiusbeerquitius]

Yes!


Yes!

[aitor iriarte]

Christian,
Correct about tablet-weaving but the used trims are not intended to make do for tablet-weaving, they are intended to make do for tapestry-woven and embroidered stripes... :wink:

Anyway, I'm glad you've rejoined the thread What can you answer to my former questions, at the beginning of this page?

Aitor

[caiusbeerquitius]

3. Trim it with a card woven trim. No fringes are pictured on these mantles and, would the card-woven trim follow properly the curve?
Thanks in advance!

That´s the way to go. I have an article by named Sylvia Crumbach which explaines how to add rims to already existing fabric. Do you want it?
If yes, that´ll be another beer. :lol:
(Or wine, if óu prefer...)