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The Abandonment of the Gladius for the Spatha - Why?
sigh.....................

ok this is going to be a book, obviously..... and im learning here so this is good some solid points have been put on the table and i appreciatte everyones input, that said theres still a few things i need you all to understand

1st,....i wasnt refering to romans as barbarians, i was referencing the vikings... they were foremost in my mind from the book used as source material, i am of roman decent and am well aware our culture was the light of the ancient world and a great darkness at times too, barbaric doesnt quite describe it

ontowards other....samurai did not fight with their swords as primary weapons on the battlefield so stow that hollywood bit, the sword was a list ditch weapon, the spirit and symbol of the samurai yes, but the bow, brothers that was the money maker! but not to digress just impress a point ...there wouldnt be hours of fighting with the swords ok

now my use of western weaponry is limited and knowledge as well, so im open to your ideas, however...i will not be insulted by my martial path being branded "western", i study aikijujutsu one of the only true "combat" martial disciplines in existance, bujutsu not budo, so lets please clear that up, i also study kenjutsu, not kendo...make no mistake, they differe drasticaly!!! swinging heavy blades will exhaust you, cutting with a katana, effortless infact if you dont relax the cut you will fail to deliver an effective blow, its technique...and i assure you superior technique, theres a reason the hype is hype, not saying believe it all but gentlemen im not here to lie to you-its awesome, also if youve never done tameshigeri, i encourage you...at least go watch

i have never seen a western blade slice through anything like a good daito will, the angle, the arch, the sword is engineered for this and maybe western blades are too, ive just never seen one or heard of one perform so well, so please....id like to watch if anyoone can pass a western blade through five spaced goza

oh yes and the book on western martial arts id burn, western martial arts i wont consider ever martial arts..why you say? well the arent "a form and a philosophy ment for WAR" self defense, sport and spiritual development maybe but thats something else...forgive my passion but it has been the better part of my life

oh ive wondered off again,....second to the bow, the samurai used yari and naginata fiercer combatants with pole arms i will guarantee than had been seen in the west....insert european stick fighting comeback here, but i dont believe it.

and to conclude, regardless of the veteran status of other cultures elite, the samurai have a tactic taught still today on moving in on opponents and against multiple opponents in such away that your champion better have spent some time learning it, also the attacking wood and wicker bit really, there are strikes to vulnerable areas between armored and to unarmored areas that are most effective, the blade, therefore the edge is a precious thing, we dont even banter blade to blade we turn the surface and deflect, its hard work perfecting such a lethal edge, clashing it like a klingon is not the way of grace, its like painting people, masterful, decisive, deliberate but with style!.

anyway the spatha can anyone answer my spatha question while attempting to suplant my subjective realities? about what was in use in moesia 86 AD? please thank you, all, you make me think and feed the fire inside, salve

yes beer, or as id prefer wine would make for a good fire side chat about all this, maybe one day i'll see you in the fields, i hope.
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
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Don't take anything personally.

Virtus.

The Romans had a code. This outlines it nicely and neatly.
[url:3i4v0r3h]http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~dee/GLOSSARY/VIRTUS.HTM[/url]

It's been one of the most overlooked and ignored parts of Roman history but is seeing a resurgence in recognition, especially after books like Ghosts and Soldiers came out, which I highly recommend you read, especially by a fireside supping beer :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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I’m sure someone will come up with a definitive answer, but my understanding is that the spatha came about in the first century. Its wasn’t necessarily a mandate that everyone switch over at a particular date, so the change took years. In 86AD it’s possible to see soldiers with either a gladius or spatha standing side by side.

I could be wrong, someone please correct me.
Steve
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Quote:Don't take anything personally.

Virtus.

The Romans had a code. This outlines it nicely and neatly.
[url:gppqhkil]http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~dee/GLOSSARY/VIRTUS.HTM[/url]

It's been one of the most overlooked and ignored parts of Roman history but is seeing a resurgence in recognition, especially after books like Ghosts and Soldiers came out, which I highly recommend you read, especially by a fireside supping beer :wink:

That’s one of the books on my list to get, I was waiting for it to come out in paper back, easier reading, I just checked and its out, so you know where I'm headed.

Quick question though, is it Soldiers and Ghosts by J. E. Lendon or Ghosts and Soldiers by someone else.

Thanks
Steve
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no tarbicus i dont, i try not to but hollywood has happened to the martial arts and brought much ridiculousness down on something sacred to me, the same of rome really. in anycase its always a fight to make people see the virtues of true bujustsu and bushido

and i know rome had a code of sorts, i could do to learn more of it, more of a great many things surely, but i was refering to western as more modern western, since the death blow delt of the modern era that seems to have chivalry on its knees reaching for its blade, only a few modern adherents practice...or live, as i prefer to state it, a "martial" way

always a good conversation here, i so love RAT
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
Reply
Quote:Quick question though, is it Soldiers and Ghosts by J. E. Lendon or Ghosts and Soldiers by someone else.
Sorry, yes it's Soldiers and Ghosts by Lendon.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply
thanks for the recommended read, im setting off to acquire it now actually what can i expect to pay for it? im thinking ebay? amazon? other? anybody selling one, i support the family first
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
Reply
I came into this discussion late, so forgive me if I missed something. We know that the gladius stopped showing up along the timeline but the spatha kept going. Do we know that the spatha was in fact used as a standard infantry weapon?

In my mind, a sturdy, short spear makes an excellent, versatile weapon. Easy to make from standard farming equipment, easy to use.
Rich Marinaccio
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Quote:Do we know that the spatha was in fact used as a standard infantry weapon?
It's stated by Siddorn to be the basis of the Viking sword.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
Reply
Quote:
Quote:Do we know that the spatha was in fact used as a standard infantry weapon?
It's stated by Siddorn to be the basis of the Viking sword.

I know that the Vikings weren't a real organized bunch, but was the Viking sword used as the starndard Viking infantry weapon?
Rich Marinaccio
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I've no idea, although they duelled with the swords to the point that those without good swords would beg, borrow and steal a topnotch one. They gave them names, built legends around them, believed they were animated, sang, etc. I dare say culturally they were important.
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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Quote:Some of the Viking swords are considered big and bulky compared to the samurai sleek sword but if you’re fighting for hours on end against Roman metal helmets, not laminated wood or wicker like the Japanese, then the Viking sword has its advantages. The larger bulky sword can take a lot of punishment, meaning that after you’ve hacked away for hours and the blade isn’t that sharp anymore you can still kill or maim with a good swing, the momentum of the heavy sword packs more of a punch.

Unfortunately this is based on some Hollywood-inspired myths about early medieval swords. Despite what movies would have you believe, a Viking Age sword was not 'big and bulky' compared to a Japanese sword. Viking swords weighed about 1.5-2 lbs - ie about the same as or slightly less than the average katana.

As for the quality of early medieval swords, some Seventh Century Lombardic blades were given to a Japanese sword restorer by an Italian museum so he could clean and analyse them. He was extremely impressed with their high quality, saying they were the equivalent of many of the best Japanese blades he'd seen and superior to most.
Tim ONeill / Thiudareiks Flavius /Thiudareiks Gunthigg

HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
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Quote:
Steve Sarak:2vhsc2en Wrote:Some of the Viking swords are considered big and bulky compared to the samurai sleek sword but if you’re fighting for hours on end against Roman metal helmets, not laminated wood or wicker like the Japanese, then the Viking sword has its advantages. The larger bulky sword can take a lot of punishment, meaning that after you’ve hacked away for hours and the blade isn’t that sharp anymore you can still kill or maim with a good swing, the momentum of the heavy sword packs more of a punch.

Unfortunately this is based on some Hollywood-inspired myths about early medieval swords. Despite what movies would have you believe, a Viking Age sword was not 'big and bulky' compared to a Japanese sword. Viking swords weighed about 1.5-2 lbs - ie about the same as or slightly less than the average katana.

As for the quality of early medieval swords, some Seventh Century Lombardic blades were given to a Japanese sword restorer by an Italian museum so he could clean and analyse them. He was extremely impressed with their high quality, saying they were the equivalent of many of the best Japanese blades he'd seen and superior to most.

I agree that Viking swords are not big and bulky. What I should have said is that some people consider them big and bulk. That statement was meant for those people that have held a Japanese sword and from that point forwards swears that nothing can compare to it any form or matter. A sword is only big and bulky to a person not trained how to use it.

I own authentic swords as well as wall hangers, I also know others that own authentic ones and have had a chance to handle a lot of sword. I don’t believe any sword is bulky if it is used for what it was meant for, even the claymore. Any sword handled by a trained person becomes a finely tuned killing tool if used correctly.
Steve
Reply
Quote:Unfortunately this is based on some Hollywood-inspired myths about early medieval swords. Despite what movies would have you believe, a Viking Age sword was not 'big and bulky' compared to a Japanese sword. Viking swords weighed about 1.5-2 lbs - ie about the same as or slightly less than the average katana.

I got the chance to hold a very old katana once that a friend father owned. It was very substantial indeed. The blade was thick and rigid like a piece of steel rebar, and the cutting edge was as sharp as a razor blade. Holding it near the hilt it seemed to float in my hand. I was extra careful because I felt like if I took my eyes off it, I'd accidently lose an ear or something.
Rich Marinaccio
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the blade might look rigid but if it was a period piece of any decent construction you should be able to bend that sucker far from true and have it return without incident, the blade needs to have some play in it while retaining its integrity, mind you these things werent intended to be bantered back and forth in typical holywood fashion, they can take the abuse though, blows were deflected but not edge to edge, there is a lot of subtle control and wrist technique to avoid this, ideally you want to preserve the cutting edge or "ha". and yes held correctly, something many adherents still dont do, especially schools that dont actually "cut" with the sword, the weapon is almost weightless and can be used very gracefully flowing from one cut to the next, this takes time though, i myself have given 13 years over to the pursuit of perfection, it still elludes me, and it should, they say the master should always seek to be the student and in being a student seek to be the master. and i dont know about your friends blade, but mine is quite sharp, moreover a dull sword can deliver if the angle and execution is right, though with noticibly diminished results. drop a piece of paper or more appropriately silk on the edge, it should fall cleanly away in two
-Jason

(GNAEVS PETRONIVS CANINVS, LEGIIAPF)


"ADIVTRIX PIA FIDELIS"
Reply


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