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Update on the Spatha and Gladius fighting techniques!
#1
Salve patres.

Yesterday one of my collegues and I where at it again and some found some relevant stuff.

We started of with the Gladius. First we tried some of the techniques from the manual known as I:33 ( http://freywild.ch/i33/i33en.html ) but with our oval shields intead of a buckler. A major chainge is the way the shieldhand is posisioned. For one thing it gets a litlle less agresive by the sizedifference and the angle of the arm did it a little harder to be active with the shield at first. Then we tried to hold it "normaly" and it changed alot. Still some of the guards dont work with a shield of larger dimentions.

One thing that struck us (hehe) was that the oval shape of the guard of the Gladius made it possible to execute a technique mainly done with messers in the manuals. It goes like this:

A strike or thrust comes in on you from above on your left side. You sidestep in a 45 degree angle to your right and at the same time you deflect the attack with the forte (strong part, i.e. the third of the blade closest to the guard) on your blade but with the knuckles turned towards yourself. This is a weak bind but with shorter blades you are able to still have the initiative. Then you flick your wrist and let your pommel go over your opponents wrist at the same time as you step 45 degree to the left. By doing so you will get control over his/her swordhand for a moment and can eather hit or thrust him/her to end the fight. The good thing here is that you get in on his/her swordside where the opponent has a harder time to deflect your attack.

This can only be done with a sword that has a guard that goes not only in te edge aligment but also defend your knuckles a bit.

With the spathae we found that many rapiertechniques from Joachim Meyers manuals from the late 16th c. where possible to apply. The length of a early rapier was a little bit longer than a spathae but not so much, and they had simple guards, (not he intricate of the later rapiers). The blades are simillar in some ways but a diffrence is that the tapering are somewhat greater on a early rapier than some spathaes, (though spathae come in a myriad of desings as far as I have found examles of on the net) But we are getting more convinced that the spathae is more of a thrustweapon than the Gladius.

Here I have to revive some of my earlier thought on the gladius. Against unarmoured enemys a Gladius is a formidamle stabber AND cutter, but against a armoured foe I would try to stab in the openings and unprotected areas. The spathae is less the chopingsword and acctually a suberb thrusting blade. (At least our waisters based on the third of the pictures on albions spathaes are). It acts in many ways as a thrust orientated weapon much like the so called cut and trustblades of the early to mid 16th c.

I will uppdate you on this after the next session.

Take care and fence with sence!

Have a nice weekend all!

Martin
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#2
Thanks Martin for a realistic attitude on swordfighting!

First, the attitide that a roman soldier would parry a Spatha-strike with a (I don`t mean you Martin) non- sharp edge of a sword is ridiculous! If someone is trying to hit you with a kitchen-knife the size of a celtic long sword (despite of the Scutum) you wouldn`t think about the sharpness of your sword! You don`t think like we 21th century re-enactors at that moment. You will just survive!

This is the same situation as I have experienced in boxing; I had very nice moves with the punching bags and mitts but then something happened. When the opponent is trying to hit you (and hurt you) it is a whole different ballgame. No former experiences matters anymore. I would think that it would be the same in a Gargantuan scale with a genuine sword-fighting.

Roman Gladiuses and Spathas are a whole different weapons, without the qualities of a single hand-to-hand combat qualities like medieval swords. What is the introduction date of a sword hand-quard and what would be it`s complete historical menaning?? I think that in this respect you the medieval sword experts can offer us an invaluable source of knowledge...
Virilis / Jyrki Halme
PHILODOX
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#3
Well, if the soldier was not trained in swordfighting he would defend anyway he could yes!

But, if I can prctise swordplay for a couple of years as a hobby and learn to react with drilled in techniques a roman soldier could do it! The move I described is a way to control the swordarm of the opponent enough to kill him off. That is what martial art is!

You are right that it is hard to know the reactions when it comes to the real thing, but sadly enough I can say that there probaly are many in our community and elswere that can tell you. Real violence exist today to. And I don´t agree with that former experience don´t matter anymore. I sertanly will. Otherwise veteran troops would not be considered better than new ones. Everyting you practise enough to "set in your backbone" will make you react in the "right" way insted of instinct, witch sometimes can betray you. That is also what Martial Art is!


The guard on the spathae and the gladius is more effective than people give it credit for, espesially if you diflect with the flat and lead the opponents blade onto the guard. The deflection edge on edge or edge on flat discussion has been debated elsewhere and is in my opinion quite silly. Of course there was and is deflections both ways. It depends on situatuion and skill. But in the case of a oval guard my opinion out of experience is that a flat deflection is smarter and if you trained eniugh to react with that that is a good thing.

A good advise in addition here is a slight parafrase of me from old Hanko Döbringer who said that in all fighting keep your weapon posed against you foe, so that whatever he do you will be faster and will give him your most agressive attack before him where it hurts.

Martin
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#4
Those interested in the interpretation of the fighting techniques in Royal Armouries MS I.33 might want to have a look at Medieval Sword and Shield: The Combat System of Royal Armouries MS I.33 by Paul Wagner and Stephen Hand. Steve is an old re-enactment buddy of mine from days of yore and he is now a full-time historical fencing instructor.
Tim ONeill / Thiudareiks Flavius /Thiudareiks Gunthigg

HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
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#5
A very good book, witch most of the interpretations we use for the I:33 manuscript comes from.

Martin
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#6
Martin -

For looking at I.33/Walpuris Fechtbuch, I'd recommend Dr. Jeffrey Forgeng's translation et. al. of the manual, available at Chivarly Bookshelf. Dr. Forgeng is the Curator at Higgins Armory, and I work with him in Sword Guild.

( http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAct ... &ProdID=98 )
( http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/ )
( http://www.higginssword.org )

I didn't get the chance to take Steven Hand's workshop at Higgins a year or so ago, but I got to meet him afterwards, very interesting guy! Very interesting ideas and theories.

There is some really interesting, potential connections with Sword and Buckler as there is with Spatha, but I have to disagree with some of your points. I.33 is a specific system that I don't think can be readily translated to Roman weapons. granted, we don't know what those Roman techniques are, so we don't nessesarily know what to compare to, but, as I said, there are some intriguing possibilities.

To me it's really down to the Shield. The buckler in use in I.33 is used in a different way than you can use, say, a Clipeus, Parma or Scutum....You use the buckler to protect your sword hand, as well as supporting the sword hand. Although I have found using the Scutum with Shield-Knocking techniques as in I.33 is very effective, if only to strike the oponet's body more than his/her hands to pin them. (scutum is just too big)

I would have NEVER thought about using the Messer/Falchion technique you mentioned! That's great! - Are you referring to Lecuckner? (1460's I think) We've been hacking through that manual a few times (pun intended), but I'm going to have to look into trying to use the pommell to grab an oponent's wrist as you mentioned. I bet that is very effective with a gladius, Although I think more effective/practical if the oponet is striking at you to your Right side/Sword hand...If he comes at your left, then I'd just use the shield and come at him with my sword. However, I don't like the idea of using the Gladius to block a sword...To me it just doesn't seem right, or "safe" (I would not trust the "hilt" to stop anything from hitting my hand)...The idea of suddenly and quickly thrusting from "behind" the shield seems more intimidating and nasty. The Spatha I can see more as used occasionally to block attacks and then counter-strike, but not the Gladius.

I'm finding the Spatha is the pre-cursor to the Short Sword/Arming Sword as found in I.33 so surely it is both great for thrusting as well as cutting, although I think primarily it's intended for cutting, whereas the Gladius is really meant for thrusting, but just as good at cutting. I can't readily reference it now, but there is a mention of how the Romans would mock the "slashing" attack (Wrath cut / Zornhau sort of deal) by taking it in the shield and thrusting 2-3 times before the oponent knew what hit him. (is that Vegetius?)

As for the Rapier techniques you mention from Joachim Meyer 1570, I have to say I'm not really buying it. Meyer's manual has been a major body of work for us in Guild, and I can only see his techniques and purpose for Sport Fencing, not readily for outright combat. Also, German tradition of thrusting was made obsolete by 1570 for being "unsportsmanlike"; he also includes the section of Rapier only because the Rapier fighters from [Italy] are killing/wounding his students, so he only includes techniques to try to prevent that from happening. (He even says he dislikes the Rapier, he favors the Longsword) I don't see how it's going to be useful refence for a Spatha.

(speaking of Meyer, keep your eyes open in the near future for Dr. Forgeng's publication of the manual, although I don't remember which Publisher it's coming from)

Please don't get me wrong, I think you have some great points. It's certainly making me think more about possibilities, and with the later Fechtbuchs and manuals.
Andy Volpe
"Build a time machine, it would make this [hobby] a lot easier."
https://www.facebook.com/LegionIIICyr/
Legion III Cyrenaica ~ New England U.S.
Higgins Armory Museum 1931-2013 (worked there 2001-2013)
(Collection moved to Worcester Art Museum)
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#7
Quote:Salve patres.

One thing that struck us (hehe) was that the oval shape of the guard of the Gladius made it possible to execute a technique mainly done with messers in the manuals... This can only be done with a sword that has
a guard that goes not only in the edge aligment but also defend your knuckles a bit. Martin

That makes a lot of sense. It is noticable that the gladius (& spatha)
guards give more protection to the hand in the flat rather than the edge.
And while I might not trust it to protect my knuckles as much as a
mediaeval cross-guard, I'd still prefer to use the flat to parry a cut than
the edge (obviously) :lol: So I'd bet that the Romans did so also. :wink:

Ambrosius
"Feel the fire in your bones."
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#8
I just wanna updata a little bit more here!

I have been doing some looking at different blades of the type we categorise as Spathae and would like to revise my earlier opinions a bit. There is hundreds of diffrent blades Confusedhock: Confusedhock: Confusedhock: . some of them look like hack´n slash monsters and others are pure stabbers like roman rapiers. So I have to say that the style of fighting has to have been as diverse as there is types of Spathae blades.

Is there any typology on the pre-medieval blades simillar to Oakeshotts ?

It would help alot if there where, to explaine some diffrent movements and attacs I have found with our wooden simulatiors we have made of the diffrent blades.
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#9
Here's a dumbheaded defense/counter which I guess everybody knows about, but here goes:

A downward cut comes in from your left side.

Crouch slightly, and intercept the blade with the edge of your shield, lifting the incoming blade back opposite its direction of travel, while you

slash across the front of your shield and down into the opponent's forearm or wrist.

You show little of your own target, but you will likely disable his swordarm.

If they can't use their hand, they can't hold whatever hurts next.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#10
Quote:Here's a dumbheaded defense/counter which I guess everybody knows about, but here goes:

Okej...

Quote:A downward cut comes in from your left side. Crouch slightly, and intercept the blade with the edge of your shield, lifting the incoming blade back opposite its direction of travel, while you slash across the front of your shield and down into the opponent's forearm or wrist.
You show little of your own target, but you will likely disable his swordarm.

If they can't use their hand, they can't hold whatever hurts next.

Nice one! And if you do this with your "short" edge, i.e. the edge away from your knuckles, in wristflick motion you can in the next moment cut into the neck or exposed face of your opponent. Your sword is already on his right side and has probally passed his shield. This secundary attack should come as quickly as possible because a good swordfighter do followupattacks, two, three or four. More than that and you will lose momentum and risk to repete yourself enough for the foe to read you and get a counterattack opportunity.
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#11
Quote:in wristflick motion you can in the next moment cut into the neck or exposed face of your opponent.
Yep. And since you're already crouched, you can continue to press his sword hand back with the shield as you stand. The whole right side of the body is exposed that way.

Down slash, backhand to neck/shoulder, thrust to midsection or thigh. And you never had to take a step forward out of ranks.

It's worked for me in simulated combat with needled felt sword. Of course it's not the only thing I do, but it is so quick that almost any left side attack is vulnerable to it.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#12
I still have lot to learn in the field of combat with shield and in line. Most of what I have done is duell combat with twohanded weapons or with singlehanded weapons and a buckler alt. free left hand to grab and attack with. In a duell situation

I almost prefer to have the left hand free to do nasty things with as holding on to hands, sleves, necks, shields or even the opponents weapon. This is especially handy (unintended hunour) in combat with shorter blades like knifes or Gladii where the distance between the fighters are quite close. like two meters or something like that.
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#13
I have a lot to learn, too. But we who know we have a lot to learn are the better students, right?

If you see an opportunity, take it. But the trouble is, even in mock combat, that there isn't just one opponent to deal with...there's the guy next to him on both sides, and the ones behind him, etc. When line fighting, though, one thing we try to do is keep an eye on the guy on your sword side...if you get a clear kill on the guy in front of you, chances are the one on your right isn't watching you, and you can sneak a hit on his sword side while he's engaged with your buddy to your right.

We have a lot of fun, and the swords aren't hard enough to hurt much. But it's an interesting hobby.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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#14
I agree.

Sadly enough we are too few just yet here in my area to do any groupcombat. So I would probally be more of a Gladiator than a soldier at the moment.

Hopefully in the future we could enlarge our gang enough to be able to do more of the massfighting.
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#15
Quote:Most of what I have done is duel combat with two-handed weapons

which tradition do you follow - German or Italian?

I also practice medieval sword-fighting (with a dutch group). We practice with longsword, sword & buckler, dagger, unarmed fighting & quarterstaff.
gr,
Jeroen Pelgrom
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I would rather have fire storms of atmospheres than this cruel descent from a thousand years of dreams.
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