Maccabees - How did they beat the Seleucids ?

[Duncan Head]

Yes Ducan, I had told him in PM, that it is your book! :wink: , is a great book indeed!...

Is not bad if I did post your images?....

Personally, I have no objection provided the quoting is not too extensive; after all, the book's still available and I hope interested people will just go out and buy it, rather than read it all on the web! However, technically the copyright to the illustrations is not mine, but belongs to the artist (Ian Heath) - and I can't speak for him.

cheers,
Duncan

[Duncan Head]

I wonder how they could afford such arms and armor. I had pictured them as a rag-tag group of zealots attacking from hilltop passes.

Most of them were, certainly in the first stages of the rebellion. However the "Toubienoi" mentioned in the sources as providing cavalry to the Maccabees are interpreted by most sources as military settlers established by the Ptolemies, so they would be equipped in Hellenistic style. In addition, the main source for my reconstruction is the Rule of War from the Dead Sea Scrolls, which does mention armoured cavalry, with horse-armour according to one reconstruction of the damaged scroll; and which I am inclined to interpret as at least partly reflecting military practice under the Maccabees - though possibly the later Hasmonean kings rather than the initial revolt. However there are many different interpretations of the date and significance of this scroll. See http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/druma ... ea/033.htm (which does not attempt to interpret the lacunae in the description of the cavalry); or http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson ... Light.html

cheers,
Duncan

[gie]

A zealot "sicarius" 1st C AD
img58.imageshack.us/img58/9990/desert33bc.jpg

(Osprey Romes Enemies- The Desert Frontier)

[Hoplitesmores]

i think they actually fought the hellenized jews which we mistake for Greeks.

[Robert Vermaat]

A zealot "sicarius" 1st C AD
img58.imageshack.us/img58/9990/desert33bc.jpg
(Osprey Romes Enemies- The Desert Frontier)

My version

[hoplite14gr]

Equiped like triarioi but used heavy javelines like pilum and straight xifos instead of kopis. That is why in wrgames they classed them as "imitation roman"

[Theodosius the Great]

As a side note : isn't it a laugh to see Jews portrayed in Arab garb in Roman films ? They would've dressed in Greek style tunics as shown below :




These are "Jewish Infantry" from the 1st century AD as shown in Phil Barker's book "The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome, 150 BC to 600 AD" (3rd edition).

It's just one of those irratating Hollywoodisms and they've never gotten it right as far as I know.

[perrygray]

Maccabean troops were able to re-use the arms and armour of the slain and captured Seleucid troops. Jewish mercenaries served throughout the Hellenistic world and some of these could have easily provided their own equipment plus served as training cadres.

Much of the information concerning the Maccabean military is based on information contained in the Dead Sea scrolls which describe an army modelled closely on contemporary Hellenistic organisations and called the Army of Light. Duncan Head discussed this source in his book in his section on the Maccabean military.

Jewish revolts were difficult to suppress as the Romans were to discover during the two revolts in the first and second centuries AD. Tampering with religion was a good way to upset the Jews.

[Felix]

Very good point. It was commonplace for victorious troops to accquire gear from the dead foemen - Hannibal re-equipped a large number of his troops with Roman arms and armour. By the by, going back to Duncan Head's point about the Seleucids and mail: wearing mail is not a good indicator of fighting in the Roman style. The scutum, pilum, and gladius are all much more central to the Roman method of warfare. In the earlier part of the Republic, most legionaries lacked mail, and of course the legions later did just fine with the segmentata.

[Jona Lendering]

To those whom it may concern: I've put online 1 Maccabees with links to pages on the Seleucid kings.
[url:1oo4t1jj]http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/maccabees/1macc01.html[/url]