Maccabees - How did they beat the Seleucids ?

[Theodosius the Great]

Do we have any sources that tell us how the Jewish rebels were able to route Seleucid armies ?

Did the Jews somehow manage to defeat the Macedonian phalanx ? Or was the whole conflict exclusively fought using guerilla tactics ?

Are there any specifics on any major battles ?

[hoplite14gr]

Some people think that they developed formed infantry themselves.
But taking into account the topology and the possibility that the armies send against them contained mostly light troops, ambush and counter ambush usually favors the guerilla.
Kind regards

[Jona Lendering]

If I recall correctly, there was another revolt in Armenia, and perhaps the Seleucid armies were demoralized after the events in Egypt?

[hoplite14gr]

Here is awargaming list with some history:
http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/II43/index.html
The dates given though are at a peried where the Hellenistic armies were at their very bottom and lacking certain heavy units.
Kind regards

[Felix]

The Macabees success was due in large part to their use of guerilla tactics, and the very high morale of their forces. The central plateau of Palestine is very rugged, and not well suited to either a phalanx or formed heavy cavalry. This played to the weakness of the Seleucid forces, and minimized the weaknesses of the Jewish forces. See Herzog and Gichon's Battles of the Bible . http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/185367 ... e&n=283155

[hoplite14gr]

Possiblt this is a General or an officer.
I belive that proper use of partisan tactics was the key to their success.
Kind regards

[Theodosius the Great]

Thanks, Hoplite14gr and Felix, for posting those sources. I'll do some reading up on the Maccabees :wink:

[Philhellene]

If I recall correctly, there was another revolt in Armenia, and perhaps the Seleucid armies were demoralized after the events in Egypt?

There were a lot of revolts of different usurpers.

War between two regents - Lysias and Philip - in 163 or 162.
Revolt of Demetrius Soter in 162.
Revolt of Alexander Balas in 150.
Revolt of Demetrius Nicator in 145.

And in the same time Egyptian pharaoh Ptolemy Philometor waged war against Seleucids about 145.

Riots in Antioch under Demetrius Nicator in 145.
Revolt of Antioch VI in 145.
Revolt of Diodotus-Tryphon in 142.

And in the same time Demetrius Nicator waged war against Parthians about 140.

etc.

So the history of Seleucid empire is the history of endless civil wars and I`m not surprised at the success of Maccabees.

[Johnny Shumate]

Great illustrations!
What book are these from..?
Thanks,
Johnny

[Nectanebo]

Do we have any sources that tell us how the Jewish rebels were able to route Seleucid armies ?

Did the Jews somehow manage to defeat the Macedonian phalanx ? Or was the whole conflict exclusively fought using guerilla tactics ?

Are there any specifics on any major battles ?

On a side issue, it's my understanding that by the end of the 2nd century AD the Seleucids and Ptolemies had largely abandonned the traditional Macedonian phalanx and adopted Roman-style tactics and weapons.

[Duncan Head]

Great illustrations!
What book are these from..?
Thanks,
Johnny

Mine, Johnny - AMPW. Surprised you don't recognise them!

They are very hypothetical reconstructions, and the armoured cavalryman is, if correct, perhaps more likely to reflect the period after the initial revolt.

On a side issue, it's my understanding that by the end of the 2nd century AD the Seleucids and Ptolemies had largely abandonned the traditional Macedonian phalanx and adopted Roman-style tactics and weapons.

This has been argued, but it is quite uncertain how extensive these changes were. One of the main passages in dispute is II Maccabees' account of one of the battles which describes the Seleucid infantry as all in mail. Bar-Kochva (in The Seleucid Army and probably in his book on Judas Maccabaeus) thinks this is an exaggerated reference to the 5,000 men in Roman-style mail mentioned a few years earlier at Daphnai; Sekunda (in Hellenistic Infantry Reform in the 160s BC) takes it literally and assumes Roman equipment had been expanded in those few years from one regiment to the bulk of the army.

cheers,
Duncan

[Arthes]

Greetings,
the Maccabean cavalryman looks good...the outfits are reminiscant of those worn by Alexander and his Companions...
regards
Arthes

[Theodosius the Great]

Greetings,
the Maccabean cavalryman looks good...the outfits are reminiscant of those worn by Alexander and his Companions...
regards
Arthes

I wonder how they could afford such arms and armor. I had pictured them as a rag-tag group of zealots attacking from hilltop passes.

it's my understanding that by the end of the 2nd century AD the Seleucids and Ptolemies had largely abandonned the traditional Macedonian phalanx and adopted Roman-style tactics and weapons.

You mean "BC", of course :wink:

I didn't know that. Sulla had faced a phalanx along with chariot support while fighting Mithradates of Pontus. Therefore, I assumed it was still in use by the rest of the Greek kingdoms as late as the early 1st century BC.

[Comerus Gallus]

I wonder how they could afford such arms and armor. I had pictured them as a rag-tag group of zealots attacking from hilltop passes.

I dont know in those days, but last time that my aunt visited the Holly Land, she was so shocked of seen that their Taxis were Mercedes Benz & a simple Hot -dog cost her $7.00 dollar us! hock: ... I had seen that middle class people had dificlty living a normal life in Jerusalem, even a sepulture it cost too much... :twisted:


This plate is a late battle:


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/C ... img121.jpg

[Theodosius the Great]

I wonder how they could afford such arms and armor. I had pictured them as a rag-tag group of zealots attacking from hilltop passes.

I dont know in those days, but last time that my aunt visited the Holly Land, she was so shocked of seen that their Taxis were Mercedes Benz

Ah, U.S. subsidies well spent. But you're right to point that out since the answer to my question is probably the same. The Maccabees were probably funded by an outside source, maybe one of the Seleucid factions vying for power. In other words, they were able to exploit the civil war climate to their advantage.

Makes sense.