ILLYRIANS

[Hoplitesmores]

s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Wilkes/


some helms were like caps

[MeinPanzer]

The Gradiste battle plate is the only one i have seen as well and it has the dragon-snake at the back and a dead weird character.

There is at least one other fairly detailed one that I have seen showing a warrior wearing an Illyrian helmet and carrying a similarly-sized shield and a spear with a massive spearhead.

hoplite shield couldn't be used from a horseback

I beg to differ! There have been at least dozens if not hundreds of sources from the Hellenistic period depicting hoplite shields carried from horseback or associated with cavalry. After the 3rd C. BC, it became the standard shield of the heavy Hellenistic cavalry!

s151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Wilkes/


some helms were like caps

What book are these images from? I am especially interested in the inscribed helmet.

[Hoplitesmores]

Its too big. Are you sure it had the same size and analogies as the typical hoplite shield?

I have only found this one and all texts i have read never say anything about this but about peltast type fighting.

Wilkes the Illyrians.The helm is from Monounios.

[Hoplitesmores]

All depictions and descriptions of them are like this



for the most part with some varieties and the Graviste is the only one have seen that is something different but its not supported by any other evidence.

I would love to see more stuff.

[MeinPanzer]

Its too big. Are you sure it had the same size and analogies as the typical hoplite shield?

I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused... I don't quite understand what you are referring to here. What is too big? What are you referring to in your second sentence?

I have only found this one and all texts i have read never say anything about this but about peltast type fighting.

Most texts are general surveys which are not familiar with all the evidence, unfortunately. Keep in mind this only seemed to be the case for the southern Illyrians (who mainly used the Illyrian helmet).

Wilkes the Illyrians.The helm is from Monounios.

I see, thanks!

for the most part with some varieties and the Graviste is the only one have seen that is something different but its not supported by any other evidence.

As I said, there is at least one other which I can post later.

[Hoplitesmores]

I mean the hoplite shield unless it was a smaller one thus not a hoplite shield. :?:

[Paullus Scipio]

Although there is no evidence that I know of, I would venture to suggest use of large round shields and Greek-style helmets together with spears suggests that the larger towns of Southern Illyria ( such as Paphos) could field a modest force of Hoplites - and cavalry - if they chose, though the majority are likely to have been peltast-type troops.......

[Hoplitesmores]

There is no mention of hoplite style usage but of the opposite favoring peltast varieties.The only thing i have seen resembling a hoplite shield is on one steele with no archaeological finds supporting it nor evidence from text but for the opossite.Even Dionysius gives them hoplites and armors that they lacked.

Even if an Illyrian lord on horseback-or any rider- wanted a shield a hoplite sized circular shield would be difficult from impossible to use.He would just strap it or use much smaller shield to protect himself.

But this would be a lord or lords not a hoplite force.

An 80-90 cm diameter shield is a nono for a rider with a height of 1.70-1.75 cm.

[Hoplitesmores]

These varieties are suggested




and the circular shied that has been found is flat.

[Hoplitesmores]

Illyrian Lords would probably wear armor and greaves and look like hoplites in a way like some Thracian

(i dont mean they would look like this)

Lords would wear more armor but the rest of the armies would be peltast hybrids.

[Hoplitesmores]

the reproduction is pretty good

[MeinPanzer]

I mean the hoplite shield unless it was a smaller one thus not a hoplite shield. :?:

Hoplite shields are by no means too big for use on horseback... in fact, some of the representations of Hellenistic heavy cavalrymen show them carrying non-hoplite shields that were probably more than 1 m in diameter

There is no mention of hoplite style usage but of the opposite favoring peltast varieties.The only thing i have seen resembling a hoplite shield is on one steele with no archaeological finds supporting it nor evidence from text but for the opossite.Even Dionysius gives them hoplites and armors that they lacked.

Considering the lack of general evidence for the armament of Illyrian warriors, it's no surprise really that we don't have detailed descriptions of hoplite-like troops. Nonetheless, the evidence speaks clearly.

Even if an Illyrian lord on horseback-or any rider- wanted a shield a hoplite sized circular shield would be difficult from impossible to use.He would just strap it or use much smaller shield to protect himself.

The evidence clearly contradicts your conclusion here. Shields from 90 cm and larger were employed on horseback regularly during the Hellenistic period. The Pergamon battle plate even illustrates riders employing massive (probably 1m in diameter or larger) circular shields with long lances wielded one-handed.

But this would be a lord or lords not a hoplite force.

Once again, both the Gradiste plate and another bronze plate which I will post later show Illyrian soldiers fighting on foot equipped with large round shields, spears, and Illyrian helmets. I don't know why you find it so hard to imagine that there was a small group of wealthy Illyrians able to afford more extensive defensive equipment...?

An 80-90 cm diameter shield is a nono for a rider with a height of 1.70-1.75 cm.

If it's impossible, what are these riders doing?

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... escene.jpg

[Hoplitesmores]

If you get on a horse with a one meter diameter shield its very impractical to you use.I tried it myself and the shield would have to be used with an Aoerter and still it wouldn't be appropriate.


There could be footmen with hoplite shields like the ekdromoi no problem there.Its the size of the shield on a horse that disturbs me.

The shields on the steel seem to be of such a diameter but their use eludes me.They would be used to protect one side of the body only.

[MeinPanzer]

If you get on a horse with a one meter diameter shield its very impractical to you use.I tried it myself and the shield would have to be used with an Aoerter and still it wouldn't be appropriate.

I think here we have to distinguish between your experience and that of the ancients. Many times in many discussions, people have deemed certain practices as impractical, difficult, and sometimes plain impossible, yet the sources are clear that they were carried out. What we today might think impractical does not necessarily dictate what the ancients found impractical.

The shields on the steel seem to be of such a diameter but their use eludes me.They would be used to protect one side of the body only.

This is often the case when cavalrymen carried shields, such as thureophoroi cavalrymen; the thureos was too long to be able to shift from one side to the other. However, I don't see why a cavalryman would not carry a shield at all simply because it only protected one side of the body- it still provided more protection than none at all.

[Hoplitesmores]

These Bithynians here.The shield seems huge, how did they use it on horseback exactly?