Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century

[Flavius Promotus]

There are, though, several excellent reenactment groups doing the early 3rd century, as has been mentioned - Quinta in the UK, Populares Vindelicenses and III Italica in Germany, being auxiliary and legionary impressions respectively

Dear Nathan, thank you for the praise

The appearance of the Roman army in the later 3rd century is indeed extremely mysterious. Dura was destroyed (probably) in 256, but the only helmet fragments I know from have been identified as pieces of Niederbieber/Heddernheim type helmets. (according to James, the fragments had almost exactly the same measurments like helmets of the same types found in Europe (another blow to the 'Dura doesn't count because it's the Roman army in Syria' theory - they even had the same boots !).

Dura also revealed a ridge helmet with a chain mail neck cover, but it was most likely a Persian helmet .

Now the Der-el-Medineh helmet - here a reconstruction by Derek R Cole - is said to be from the late 3rd century, although I don't know on what findings this is based (there is an article in Germania 1940 or 1941, can look it up - the library is just around the corner).



This helmet looks crude but effective, and although I don't understand much about helmet production, it does not seem to be a very time consuming construction, compared to earlier helmets with a lot of brass fittings and decorations (e.g. both types of the Niedermoermter !).
So perhaps we here see the later effects of a desperate attempt to fit as many soldiers as possible with better-than-nothing helmets, helmets which then start their own evolution. The Galerius column shows soldiers with this type of helmet (at least I think so).

Large Roman armies were lost (with most of their equipment) in:
251 - battle of Abrittus (Decius vanquished by the Goths)
259 - Valerian captured with part of his army by the Persians
260ies - seafaring Goths pillage most cities (and garrisons!) at the Black Sea, the Bosporus and the Aegean

Then the tide turns:

269 - Claudius Goticus ("the Gothslayer") exterminates a large Goth army at Naissus
270ies - Aurelian defeats the Palmyrenes, the Goths, many other tribes, and forces the last Gallic emperor to give up.

I would say, there must have been a number of substantial reforms in the 260ies, when the empire was on the verge of collapse.
Think of the mobile cavalry army set up by Gallienus for example.

On the other hand, was there so much equipment to be changed ?

- pugiones disappear
- rectangular scuta seem to get out of use (although at least two were found at Dura)
- helmet types seem to be replaced by a radically new way of making helmets (but when ??? and certainly not at once !)
- segmentata might have been used until the middle 3rd century

But...
- scale and mail where already widespread in the early 3rd century (according to Cassius Dio, the praetorians donned their scale armour before a battle to be more flexible), in fact they had always existed parallel to the segmentata in the imperial period.
- the boots did not change immediately
- the spathae had been introduced already decades before the 260ies, and the oval shields are also no radically new invention.

So the 'cataclysmic' change between early and late 3rd century was perhaps not so complete as we might think.


Back to reenactment:

Sseverus, I would take an oval Dura scutum, although the rectangular Dura is easier to produce (I've got a rectangular one :oops: ).

Sassanid, the tunic you want to make, do you want to stitch the decorative clavi on, or do you want to paint them ? (unless you want to do it hardcore style and weave them in)

If you want to use paint, don't repeat my mistake. I used allegedly waterproof cloth paint for my 'Tribune Terentius from Dura' tunic (can't post the image it's too large - you find it under www.legion-regensburg.de , 'Bilder' - 'Ladenburg', then go to 'Kaiserkult').

Then there was this terrible rainsquall, and I had to repaint the areas around the clavi with white colour because of the pink stains.
Looks a little strange now :evil: .
(luckily the purple fringes of the white cloak did not suffer in the same way - phew).

I am now working on a red woolen tunic with black clavi (NO - please no new tunic war !), and this time I use ACRYLIC paint. Makes the cloth a little stiff, but I tested it in warm water with a large amount of soap - it works

Vale,
Aurelius Florianus/Flavius Promotus

[Flavius Promotus]

Ok, looked it up...

The following article was about the Der-el-Medineh helmet:

Dittmann, K.H., 1940, Ein eiserner Spangenhelm in Kairo, in: Germania 24, 54-58.

Unfortunately, it was already in 1940 completely unknown under what circumstances or with what other items this helmet had been found in 1912.

The (very convincing) theory about a production of helmets based on quantity, not quality from the late 3rd century/early 4th century on was brought up by Simon James.

James, S., 1986, Evidence from Dura-Europos for the origins of Late Roman helmets, in: Syria 63, 108-134.

(also compare Southern and Dixon, the late Roman Army, 94-95).

[Sassanid]

Morning,

Andrew, I have no doubts myself that your helmet was sometimes used by cavalrymen. As I have no doubts that ridge helmets with a nasal (Berkasovo-types) were sometimes used by infantry, even when it makes much more sense to suppose that the cheaper types (Intercisa) were more likely to have been used for the infantry.
I can't tell for sure who they were designed for, nor do we have any information that any type was distributed to either cavalry or infantry. Of some helmets we know this, but who can tell which helmet was worn by whom?

Robert - There is, I agree an argument in the 3rd century for the general purpose helmet. There were helmets that were exclusively one or the other, but there are others that cannot be so easily be assigned.

Helmet evidence at Dura to my knowledge is limited to the siege mine battle. They are then presumably infantry. They are Robinson classified E's and F's*, with the exception of the one mentioned above, the probable Sassanian Ridge helm. Presumably the victors collected all the iron and copper alloy they could find for recycling. Or alternatively the garrison was allowed to leave after giving the city up to invaders.



* Promotus - This really is a classification nightmare. I agree on the term Niederbiebers, but you have be careful with the term Heddernheim. To my knowledge the Heddernheim is a very specific cavalry helmet. It does though also seem to get assigned in many books to a probable infantry helmet found at Friedberg, a Robinson E.

The Der-el-Medineh helmet cannot be dated easily by the level it was deposited in. It was thrown down a well. The biggest clue to its age are the hinges. They are similar to the early 4th century ridge helmets. The cheek pieces are also a very similar shape to Berkasovo ridge helm, which was I believe is dated to the early 4th century. Ridge and spangenhelms though as we have discussed many times on this board have very different and separate histories. The spangenhelm being introduced into the Roman army earlier than the Ridge. Another story all together.

Natham - No segmentata armour as yet has been found at Dura.

Promotus - On my tunic. I am still doing my research, but I will defintly bear in mind what you have told me. I go through a tunic a year so I think I can rule out hardcore. Sewing patches on sounds the best method so far.

sseverus - Avoid the brass Deepeeka E as well. It was copied from an original found in Germany at the turn of the century. I believe it was incorrectly put together and visualized at that time because they had nothing else to go on. The original was then destroyed in WWII during a bombing raid, so the museum could never take another look at it, and compare it to subsequent finds.

After the war the museum made a copy of their original from photographs they still had. Deepeeka have badly copied that model. They are not the only ones mind you - The Lonely Mountain Forge have done exactly the same.

The steel Deepeeka E is just poor. Little better than their trooper helmet. Their D though, as I mentioned earlier is quite good, considering it is off the shelf and fairly cheap.

Andrew

[aitor iriarte]

Yes, the only information about the Deir el Medineh helmet is that it was found inside a well. Deir el Medineh is the famous site of the Pharaonic workers' village (They constructed the tombs at the Valley of Kings and that of Queens) Notwithstanding, it saw Roman and Late Roman occupation. The former temple of Hathor was transformed into a Christian monastery (Hence the Arabic name of the site).
The helmet is now exhibited at the Coptic Museum, Cairo.


I think that the earlier daiting (late 3rd) is more plausible than the old later one (6th century). Notice that the ridge helmets had their chin-straps attached by rivets to the lower border of the cheek-pieces. However, this helmet has still the chinstraps attached to a ring rivetted to the centre of the cheek-piece, by, its inner side. Actual remains of the strap still survive!

Aitor

[sseverus]

Lots of info..... :-) )
I think I will go for a hamata with long sleeves, a Nieder Mormter helmet (I like the The Lonely Mountain Forge one, but it's a bit expensive for the moment) , a Dura Europos shield and a spatha (no gladius?). Correct?
Instead of a helmet, can I also wear a mail hood? I saw it on some pics.
If so, can I use a "medieval" hood or is it different?
Regards,
Nico

[Sassanid]

Hi again Nico,

You would probably be wise to steer clear of coifs doing a 3rd century legionary impression. In my opinion it is not very likely that a legionary ever wore one.

There are still some short swords about in the 3rd century, but what ever length you go for, it should hang on your left, and the scabbard should be attached to the baldric via a slide.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y102/Sassanid/LEFT.jpg


Mine is a reasonable copy of a "Straubing/Nydam" type spatha. The slide was found at Corbridge, but other examples have also been found in Germany. The chape is also a fairly common type. Found everywhere from Dura to Wales - The eastern extremes to the western extremes.

Andrew

[Flavius Promotus]

Dear Aitor, great image ! Did you take it ? Interesting point about the cheek-piece rings. I was most struck by the great similarity of the nasal fitting between the Der-el-Medineh (undated), and the Sassanian helmet from Dura (mid 3rd century). Do they vary from later nasal covers ? I know the Berkasovo style helmets did have some, but I don't have images at hand.

Sassanid: you are right - the classification of the late 2nd/3rd century 'auxiliary' helmets IS a nightmare. The helmet you (and your avatar :wink: ) wear, is usually called the Niederbieber style, but Junkelmann (Roemische Helme - great book !) places a very similar looking helmet from Frankfurt-Heddernheim into the "Type Niederbieber" category. There is another helmet from Frankfurt-Heddernheim, but it seems to have been a cavalry helmet (!?). That's the disadvantage of using place names - if there are several helmets from the same place and there is no image, you can only throw dice :? .

James (Dura-Europos, Arms and armour), p. 101 writes:
"Apart from the uncertain 375 all the fragments come from helmets which Robinson (1975) classified as auxiliary cavalry forms (specifically his types E, F and I). However, these are now seen simply as standard types used by both foot and horse during the third century.
Particularly striking is the precision with which these fragments may be matched to helmets from Europe, notably those from Heddernheim [terminology!!! :? ], Amerongen and Kalkar-Hoenepel, not only in their general arrangement but also the fine details of their construction and even in degrees of curvature (...). This evidence, limited though it is, suggests that the helmets of the Durene garrison at the time of the siege were indistinguishable from those to be seen in contemporary Western forts."

Same book next page (202): "Severan and later military tombstones (see Coulston 1987 for a general discussion) show that even legionaries wore them."

NO fragments of these helmets have been found among the pile of the dead Roman soldiers in the Tower 19 countermine. They still had their shields when the mine collapsed (shield bosses), their body armour, and their weapons, and even their cloaks (with the brooches).

James suggests, they had fought bareheaded because it would have been too difficult to use Niederbieber/Heddernheim/AuxE,F,I(whatthehell)-helmets in a crouched position in a narrow tunnel (plausible theory inspired by a suggestion from Mike Bishop).

The only helmet from the mine under tower 19 was the crushed Sassanian one.

And now to something completely different...

...great scabbard ! Did you make it yourself ?

About the tunic clavi - I've never tried this, but perhaps it might work to have them weaved (this would certainly look quite impressing) although I can imagine this method to be a little expensive.

Sseverus - Sassanid is right, take a helmet, not a mail hauberk or a scale coif. IF the Romans used them (possible), they probably used them as a stopgap. Furthermore, if you are the only Roman around, it is very hard to convince the knownothings that you are a 'Roman' :wink: .

This comment is not intended to hurt the feelings of the guy from Quinta who made this really great scale coif

BTW, Sassanid, do you know the name of the Quinta member I met at the ROMEC ? Have forgotten his name - SORRY !

[Sassanid]

Flavius Promotus,

Sassanid, do you know the name of the Quinta member I met at the ROMEC ? Have forgotten his name - SORRY

I don't, but I will make enquiries. Was it recently?

Particularly striking is the precision with which these fragments may be matched to helmets from Europe, notably those from Heddernheim [terminology!!! ], Amerongen and Kalkar-Hoenepel, not only in their general arrangement but also the fine details of their construction and even in degrees of curvature

That degree of curvature is the part that most modern helmet manufactures are unable to get right. And I don't just mean the Indian ones. That bowl shape is very distinctive indeed.

On the scabbard - it was my design, based on pieces found locally, but it was made by Godfrey Knight here in the UK.

Andrew

[Gregory J. Liebau]

Hello folks,

Wondering if I could interrupt and ask if this Deepeeka helmet is close enough to accurate? It looks a lot like Sassanid's, too me! I can see the detail differences, of course, and would like to know if this is suitable for reenactment use.

If I've got this right, it's use for an early third century auxiliary infantryman is appropriate, yes?



Also, what of these?





Thanks!

-Gregory-

[Caius Valens]

Hi Constaine here , If you have one of these brass helms(Aux E) can the mistakes be fixed or is this type of helm a write off. Also does anyone make an Aux E brass or steel correctly and at a reasonable price Take care Constaine

[Nathan Ross]

A good way of assessing the relative qualities of these replica helmets is to compare them with the originals! This page has some good illustrations of surviving 'Neiderbieber type' helmets:

[url:37prdui9]http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Helmet-niederbieber.html[/url]

I think the 'Friedberg type' is the Robinsonian 'Aux Cavalry E' - but where the strange 'mouthguard' on the Deepeeka version comes from I don't know - possibly somewhere else entirely. As you can see, though, the shape of the Deepeeka 'Infantry E' is wrong - far too cylindrical. It should look more like Andrew's version. Another thing worth noting, however, is that these helmets all look different! There is no uniform 'pattern' for them. That said, it's always better to go with something based on a real find...

Deepeeka's 'Buch' and 'Von Gravert' helmets don't look too bad to me, but I'll let someone with more expertise in the matter be the judge on that

[Mithras]

Sassanid, is that second helmet a write-off? If you have definate proof, I'm willing to just up and buy a different helm. I was under the impression those Heddernheim helms were OK ... see my avatar ...

[Sassanid]

Quickly as I am off to bed,

The brass Deepeeka E is the copy of the one destroyed in the War, the 3rd picture. Poor copy of a copy, and why it looks odd.

Mithras, yours is the second, although the one in your avatar is the Kalkar-Honnepel helmet that has been mentioned. Not a right off by any means.

My helmet is based on the Friedberg find, and bits of a couple found at Dura. Again my design. Will go into more details if any one is interested tomorrow.

Andrew

[Flavius Promotus]

I don't, but I will make enquiries. Was it recently?

Yes, early September this year at Budapest. There was an interesting discussion about headgear, and someone (perhaps I?) mentioned scale coifs, and he said "oh, we have one" or "we have coifs". Only then did I realise I was talking to a Quinta member

Should you see him, send him my greetings.

The scabbard - how much did you pay ? Do you think the person who made it would make another one ?
And the blade is simply from a Deepeeka spatha ? (the 3rd century one with the red scabbard and the round 'Dosenortband', or the 'late Roman one which comes with a grey scabbard ?)


I have heard a story that some inexperienced archaeologists (this is no generalisation !!!) reconstructed the Friedberg helmet totally wrong by attaching the forehead deflector plate UPSIDE DOWN ! Deepeeka copied the mistake. From where this strange mouthplate came from I don't know, either. Looks like it was designed by Shredder from The Turtels.

About the Deepeeka "von Gravert": my experience is only limited, but it looks RATHER ok (although the gaps between cheekpiece and neck shield seem to be too large. Caius Tarquitius from the Populares knows more about this. Still the best Deepeeka version of this helmet family IMHO. I've got one, but can't wear it because of my huge pumpkin (egghead with still enough hair). The only helmet large enough for me is the Deepeeka Niedermoermter - see my avatar (has also quite some mistakes, but I hope to get a few improvements made next year).

[Valerius Valentinus]

I am the Quinta member with the coif. I do not know anyone from Quinta who went to Budapest. Perhaps a person from another northern UK group, or the museum service? Or you have met someone Else who has a coif made of scales. I have seen photos of other scale coif reproductions.

Hi Andrew, Hi Paul. I've been away from the RAT for most of the year, now living in Co. Durham.

I was thinking of buying the brass Deepeeka helmet with the 3 cheek pieces and re-doing it all. Just an idea of an obsessed man.