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+--- Thread: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century (/showthread.php?tid=4063)
Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - sseverus - 11-04-2005
Hello everybody. I first want to say hello to you all as a new member.
I have a great interest in the 3rd century and I want to start with reenactment of a legionnaire from the beginning of that century (reign of Caracalla).
I read a lot on this board, visited some Internet shops with armour, weapons and shields.
But I still need some real help.
Questions:
1. which sort of shield need I?
2. caligae? or already shoe's?
3. spatha or gladius?
4. lorica or hamata?
5. which clothing?
6. helmet?
7. some other stuff I need to know?
Since I'm not a handy-man and I a modest budget have, I must stick to some "of the shelf" items (Deepeeka).
I hope you can help me.
Thanks,
sseverus
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Theodosius the Great - 11-04-2005
Welcome to RAT, SSeverus / Nico,
Many of these questions have already been addressed on this thread not too long ago : link from old RAT
After reading the thread above maybe you can ask more specific questions and I'll do my best to help out. :wink:
I myself am in the middle of assembling gear for this time period as well (beginning 3rd century AD). I have most of the gear already assembled.
I should warn you that you'll probably end up spending at least $1000 (US) on this impression assuming you're starting completely from scratch.
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - sseverus - 11-06-2005
Thanks Theodosius for your reply.
In the book of Peter Connolly "Greece and Rome at war", there is a pic of a legionair, dated early 3rd century, wearing caligae.
Is this correct?
Since I want to recreate a soldier from the reigh of Caracalla, can I wear caligae or should I choose for shoes?
Thanks,
Nico
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Theodosius the Great - 11-06-2005
You're welcome, SSeverus.
I know the picture and it is incorrect to wear them for 3rd century impressions. This error is also shown in an Osprey book. Caligae ceased to be worn by Roman legionaries by the early second century AD.
No, you can just buy a pair of 3rd century boots that Deepeeka makes (yes they actually make them
hock: ). When you get them you should cut off the tongues since Romans didn't have them (as I was told recently).
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Tarbicus - 11-06-2005
Quote:Caligae ceased to be worn by Roman legionaries by the early second century AD.Was that the case in the East?
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Arthes - 11-07-2005
The Deepeeka 3rd century side lacing boots look extremely modern, although many current styles are inspired by ancient ones.
It's a pity there is no idea of the prices without going through all the rigmarole of registering and 'adding to cart' :?
regards
Arthes
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Gregory J. Liebau - 11-07-2005
Deepeeka's site only sells wholesale, so that trouble wouldn't help you much, anyway!
-Gregory-
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Theodosius the Great - 11-07-2005
Quote:Quote:Caligae ceased to be worn by Roman legionaries by the early second century AD.Was that the case in the East?
Afaik, it applies across the board.
My understanding is that the change in styles has to do with demobilizing the legions (i.e. housing them in permanent stone forts) hence no need for the classic caligae marching boots. The legions became more static in nature.
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Flavius Promotus - 11-07-2005
Er, sorry Theodosius but...
although the defensive system as such became more static, the mobile vexillationes were thrown from one hot spot to the other. Some were separated from their mother legions for year after year of playing the imperial fire brigade at the Rhine zone, the Danube, Mesopotamia (Shapur I !!!), Britain, Italy, Africa, Egypt, etc.
Just think of Severus Alexander - a huge field army is drawn from the units in Germany and the Balkans, then moved to Syria, gets partially annihilated there, then moved back even more hastily because of a huge inroad by the Allamannic tribes. Even if water transport (Danube) was used), there must have been a hell of forced marches.
So please don't think Roman armies stopped marching after the caligae came out of fashion :wink:
Sseverus, if you want 3rd century shoes, I would take a look at the homepage of Sarah Juniper (probably the Saalburg 199). The shoes are not too expensive and look rather ok. If you want to do static reenacting they should be fine. If you want to cover certain distances, you should try to get something more robust. I've seen a pair of Sarah's thin goat leather shoes totally loose their form after a day of marching in rain (the heel area was so deformed, that walking became VERY unpleasant). Furthermore, the nails are small and don't last long.
I know an address for higher quality shoes (with excellent nails) in Europe, but they may cost you at least 300 € plus shipping and the customs fee.
Armour: mail should be ok, scale mail (squamata) would probably be even better, segmentata: a few Newsteads should still have been in use
(Leg VI VV in California has some really nice ones, but I don't know if they make them for sale)
Helmet: Take a Deepeeka Auxiliary E (Heddernheim) or Niederbieber helmet, probably a Niedermoermter (steel).
Shields: ask Caius Tarquitius !
Hope this was helpful
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Theodosius the Great - 11-07-2005
Promotus, I was just regurgitating a theory I read as to why the caligae fell out of style. Therefore my comments were limited in scope to the 1st and 2nd centuries AD.
True, marching became more common starting from the mid to late 2nd century BUT by that time the Romans already had use of the paved road system. So no more of the old school rough terrain marching for us later Romans :wink: .
So you still wouldn't need classical caligae.
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 11-07-2005
You can see some great re-enactors examples at romanarmy.com's re-enactor gallery.
At LEGIO PRIMA GERMANICA (primagermanica.com) we have one impression of that period:
http://personales.ya.com/ad932102038/ge ... ardbuc.jpg
http://personales.ya.com/ad932102038/ge ... gp3246.jpg
http://personales.ya.com/ad932102038/ge ... 102336.jpg
Helmet is Deepeeka's Buch with some modifications. Spatha is deepeka Blade with all the rest made anew.
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Flavius Promotus - 11-07-2005
Lucius,
the guy with the Buch helm - nice baldric ! Looks like a lot of stitching.
Theodosius,
er...
I hope you don't mind if I - once again - have a slightly different opinion.
:wink:
Not all Roman roads were paved, certainly not all late Roman roads. I can only talk about the Roman roads here in Raetia, which, like the via Claudia Augusta, constisted of several heavily compacted layers of gravel with a core of wooden beams for stability.
At least in Tyrol, the via Claudia Augusta seems to have had three different building periods (with each new layer over the old one).
Period 1 (46 AD - Claudius): quite elaborate, with large wooden beams for the core, a lot of gravel.
Period 2 (70ies to mid 3rd century ?): the second layer = once again wooden beams covered with a heavy layer of gravel, but less elaborate, and the road is slightly narrower.
Period 3 (late Roman - Julian to Valentinian I): just two layers of wooden beams with a filling in between. No gravel surface ?
(Someone mentioned "more quotes of references" - here they come:
Bender, H., 2000, Roemischer Strassen- und Reiseverkehr, in: Wamser, L. (Ed.), Roemer zwischen Alpen und Nordmeer, Munich, 255-263 [reprint 2005]).
Gravel is very destructive for shoenails, but you don't slip on it (smooth stones on a paved road are much more dangerous, as quite a lot of the guys here know). At any rate, you still need good and stable footwear.
Greets
Aurelius Florianus/Flavius Promotus
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS - 11-07-2005
I agree with Promotus.
At Tarraco (Hispania), practically all the roads and streets archaeological detected was made by a superposition of layers of gravel. Romans called it glarea strata.
Glarea strata was a lot more common than silicea strata, or roads made of flat stones like Via Apia.
I do'nt understand the theory of Theodosius. Calligae and III century an later boots are very similar in terms of stability and both have hobnails. Probably calligae are better for long marchs and boots are better for cold weather conditions. And we can't forgot fashion tendences, so popular too in roman times!
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - Theodosius the Great - 11-07-2005
Quote:Theodosius,
er...
I hope you don't mind if I - once again - have a slightly different opinion.
:wink:
Not at all, Promotus. I'm glad to learn from those more learned than I :wink: .
Quote:Not all Roman roads were paved, certainly not all late Roman roads...Gravel is very destructive for shoenails, but you don't slip on it (smooth stones on a paved road are much more dangerous, as quite a lot of the guys here know). At any rate, you still need good and stable footwear.
That's fascinating
wink: You get more insights.Nevertheless, the only point I'm trying to make is that a forced march in the imperial period was probably FAR more preferable than marching in Republican times.
Few roads (if any) so that means rough terrain plus building a marching camp at the end of the day's journey - yuck . In imperial times you could probably travel MUCH further in the same amount of time due to the road system (no matter what type) since you're not marching at an incline as much and you'd always be marching to a stone fort with its own heated baths.
So an imperial march, IMO, wasn't probably as rigorous as it was in earlier times so I think that's why they discarded the old caligae foot ware (in conjunction with other factors as Lucius states, e.g. cold weather). An imperial march was less debilitating on the foot.
The question isn't about durability of boots versus caligae, rather simply about utility. Caligae were not as beneficial as they once were by the 2nd century.
What do you think ?
Re: Recreating a legionair beginning 3rd Century - sseverus - 11-07-2005
Thanks a lot, friends ;-) )
Any idea where I can buy scale mail (squamata) for a reasonable price?
I'm rather tale (1.94m) and my weight is about 105 kg (210 lbs).
So, would it be difficult to find something in my size (squamata, hamata or segmentata)?
Spatha.
Looking at my budget that I can spend, it will be a deepeeka.
Any idea which is best?
Or did they still use a gladius at the beginning of the 3rd century?
Thank you.
Greetings from Belgium.
Nico