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Are gloves period?
#16
Quote:what about socks with toes .... i may be going mad but i seem to remember this in relation to roman matters

There are socks with a split toe for wearing with thonged sandals that were found in Coptic Egypt about 300-400AD. A picture is here at the V&A museum

These socks are done with nallbinding, the one-needle form of "knitting" that was around long before knitting. (And as a reminder, the Romans did not knit. Smile

Mittens can be made this way but I've never seen anyone do gloves. I'd assume that you could do gloves since you can do toed socks. But making mittens would be much easier and they keep your hands warmer than gloves. Plus you don't really need separate fingers to wield a sword or carry your shield. Sewn mittens would be even easier. Trace your hand on some fur or cloth, cut two pieces and sew up the sides. Voila! Mitten!

deb
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Deb
Sulpicia Lepdinia
Legio XX
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#17
Quote:These socks are done with nallbinding, the one-needle form of "knitting" that was around long before knitting. (And as a reminder, the Romans did not knit. Smile
link from old RAT
Bottom images I'm told were knitted, not nålbound/nallbound/naalbound. I'm sure ther is is a difference, but somehow I don't understand why there should be a 'terminus' before knitting can't have existed. If somehow invented the technique earlier than previously assumed, why not?
The museum in Stuttgart where they told me these socks were knitted and from the4th c. AD.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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#18
Quote:http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.p...4&start=20
Bottom images I'm told were knitted, not nålbound/nallbound/naalbound. I'm sure ther is is a difference, but somehow I don't understand why there should be a 'terminus' before knitting can't have existed. If somehow invented the technique earlier than previously assumed, why not?

The museum in Stuttgart where they told me these socks were knitted and from the 4th c. AD.

A few things going on here.

a) Early textiles were often labeled "knitting" as a catch-all for "non-woven". Few curators cared or even bothered to find out whether something was made with a 2-needle knitting technique or a 1-needle nalbinding technique. Rutt, in A History of Handknitting even says that there are medieval girdles that are labled as being knitted when they were tablet woven. So just because something says it's "knitted", doesn't mean that it was made with what we think of as "knitting" today.

b) Because of the "knitting" label, few curators have actually gone back and looked at the artifacts to see what technique they were constructed of and the knitting label stuck. Look at the V&A socks which are labled "knitting" but if you look closely at the stitches, the technique is clearly nalbinding. Makes me want to smack the curators at the V&A.

c) The bottom sock is definitely knitted but is from probably 1200-1300AD. It says "Allah" around the top. The middle sock is probably turned inside out but it is the reverse of nalbinding.

Like any craft, it's hard to say when it actually got started. But you can say when it was definitely around. Before about 600AD, all "knitted" fabric that has been found is definitely nalbinding and comes from either the Middle East or Egypt. The earliest such piece comes from Dura-Europos, Syria dated to AD 256. The V&A socks come from a Greek colony in Egypt around 400-600AD.

Given this, I'd have to say that knitting as a Roman technique is definitely right out. Rutt, again in his book, think that knitting took over from nalbinding somewhere between 500-1200AD and might have come up to Europe through Muslim Spain. It's also interesting to note that until about 1200, only socks have been found in both nalbinding and knitting. Doesn't rule out other garments but doesn't mean that they existed either.

We DO have existant examples of sewn socks for the Romans and their weaving techniques are pretty well documented. So like Matt Amt and the great pugio debate, I'd have to say that unless something is clearly documented, we shouldn't use it in reenactments. Thus if you want to be as authentic as you can, knitted items are right out.

For more info on this, I'd recommend checking out a copy of Richard Rutt's, A History of Hand Knitting which any decent library should have. The first chapter talks about the confusion with the earliest samples of "knitting" and how to tell the difference between knitting and nalbinding. Nancy Bush's Folk Socks also has a little blurb on early socks and a picture of the Vindolanda children's sock that was found.

deb
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Deb
Sulpicia Lepdinia
Legio XX
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#19
true true ... Lepidina.
Its a common mistake. Unfortunately seen in many wise books Sad

I see you read good books about it, but I have one more for you Smile , and other interested. I made scans of I. Turnau - History of Knitting Before Mass-Production, which is 'out of print' for many years and I dont think it can be issued again. Please ask my on PM about it.
Cacaivs Rebivs Asellio
Legio XXI Rapax - http://www.legioxxirapax.com/
a.k.a Cesary Wyszinski
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#20
Hmmmmm,

so what would be the recommendation on what to wear for those of us in cool climates? What would you suggest wearing as a 1st to 2nd Century AD re enactor to events?

Undones?

Hand made wool mittens with a thumb? I am sure they had to have had something.


If pre historic cavemen had them, I am sure the Roman Army had something.

v/r
Mike
Mike Daniels
a.k.a

Titus Minicius Parthicus

Legio VI FFC.


If not me...who?

If not now...when?
:wink: <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />:wink:
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#21
I have a book by Jacqueline Morley and John James entitled "A Roman Villa". It's very basic, but at the end it has an addendum entitled "Notes From Farming Authors". Here's a piece from it, with no source quoted:

Rules for olive pickers: Do not use gloves;...

Sounds a bit Pliny maybe?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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#22
As our nowegian specialist rightly pointed out, in minus 20 degrees temperatures, without gloves or mittens, your fingers will eventually turn blue, then fall off. So they used gloves, or rathers mittens IMHO
I'd suggest fur mittens, like rabbit fur, with the fur outside
I read somewhere that rabbit fur socks --and probably other small furry creatures-- were used with caligaes in winter, again with the fur outside. Pretty much waterproof stuff..
Pascal Sabas
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#23
Romans, tougher than cave men.
>|P. Dominus Antonius|<
Leg XX VV
Tony Dah m

Oderint dum metuant - Cicero
Si vis pacem, para bellum - Vegetius
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