Win a set of belt plates

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

In December I am going to have a set of belt plate stamps cut. The dies will be for a manual hydraulic press, and I will cut them them for 20ga., unless advised otherwise. I live where there are no examples to go by, and references are hard to find. I have are the usual, Bishop & Coulston, Connally, etc. and a few JRMES, but know of no encyclopedic type source.

So, for those of you who who have more exhaustive sources, here's the deal: Post a pic of your favorite belt plate, and explain in 50 words or less why this design should be duplicated and you will win a free set of the belt plates you submit! (Others may be awarded a set of plates by submission of a sycophantic request.)

Also, Is there any evidence of silver objects soldered onto a brass/bronze base?

Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)

[Caballo]

I would vote for Annaius. Not only is the sculpture incredibly detailed (and the belt plate design not made by any manufacturer I know of) , but the belt plate design is repeated on the pugio, allowing a matching set of belt plates and pugio to be made!

Belt detail at http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/c ... /torso.htm

Pugio detail at http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/c ... dagger.htm

Whole sculpture at
http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/c ... annmap.htm


Re silver, there is absolutely proof of silver foil being soldered onto beltplates using tin to hold it in place. You might want to look at this discussion? http://www.romanarmy.nl/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4700

Cheers

Britannicus

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Britannicus,

Your submission has a great deal to recomend it... what with the design repeated on the pugio and all...

I will run this past the judges, my three putentats: Ramses, Titus, and Griffen...

Gaius
(R.I.)

[Crispvs]

Paulus

"I would vote for Annaius. Not only is the sculpture incredibly detailed (and the belt plate design not made by any manufacturer I know of) , but the belt plate design is repeated on the pugio, allowing a matching set of belt plates and pugio to be made! "


It is a good suggestion but I suspect that what we are actually seeing here is a simplification of the complex and highly detailed patterns to be found on 1st century dagger sheaths. It is true that the Rhineland sculptures do appear to have been carved by sculptors who had first hand knowledge of soldiers and their equipment and this is borne out by the fact that many small details shown on the stones closely match items found in the archaeological record. However, as one would expect, many of the more intricate details of brooches, belt plate designs and openwork boots have been simplified to a level achievablle by a reasonably capable sculpture. The detail of the actual decoration on some of these items would be impossible to reproduce in stone unless the sculpture was to be vastly oversize. I believe therefore that many of the belt plates shown on the Rhineland stones are simplifications which nonethless give an impression of the look of the actual pieces being depicted. I believe that the same goes for dagger sheaths. I think that what is shown on Annaius' sheath is an understandable simplification of a common set of inlaid motifs found on type 'B1' sheaths, which consist of a central circular pattern often in the form of a wreath, containing a star or a circle divided into sixths or eigths, and surrounded by scores of inlaid straight lines which run from the circular motif to the square frame of the decorative field (dagger sheaths normally have four fields of decoration, one above the other, the top three being roughly square and the bottom one being triangular to fit the shape of the sheath). Sometimes these lines all run in the same direction and sometimes they radiate out from the central motif. I think that the decoration seen on Annaius' sheath is about as close as it would be possible to achieve in stone for a sculptor trying to depict this level of detail as faithfully as possible. The soldiers who saw it later would recognise enough to know what they were supposed to be looking at.
Of course, it is still a possibility that it could be a pair of belt plates attached to an otherwise plain sheath to 'jazz it up' a bit. The only problem I have with that is that I have pictures of well over a hundred different dagger sheaths (which must be around two thirds of those so far know) and not a single one seems to have embossed decoration or decoration whose detail closely resembles that of belt plates.
Annaius' sheath and belt plate decoration is closely paralelled by the decoration to be found on a number of other stones from the Rhineland area and I feel that on the present evidence it is safe to assume for the time being that this decoration was an accepted shorthand for what all knew was impossible to accurately depict in stone.

Sorry if I have spoilt your idea but I felt it needed to be said.

Regards,

Crispvs

[Crispvs]

I would vote for the Sheepen stamp. It is the only such stamp we have and chasing animal motifs such as it would make are absent from virtually all the plates currently available, despite being one of the small number of standard designs.

I can't post a picture. Sorry.

Crispvs

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Oh wow man! This is going to be more complicated than I thought. Crispvs, You do have a valid argument. This is why I posted on this topic to begin with... People closer to the real stuff have better insite that those of us half way around the world...

The sheepen belt plate has actually been done. I have one example. It was done on very thin sheet however. They were thin to the point that there are ripples in one corner from the stretching. I dont know who made it.

Gives me more to ponder here. Both of you (Britannicus and Crispvs) have excellent suggestions.

Gaius
(R. I.)

[Caballo]

Crispus,

Is it possible that the design on Annaius ' belt was formed on a metal sheath (I forget whether this is type A or B) using the same punch as for the belts? That way, you would get a matching design, but not have individual belt plates on a pugio (which I agree- on going back to my books- that there is no evidence for).

The other advantage of using Annaius is that both his two belts use the same belt plate design- so you can build one stamp and make two 100% authentic belts to be worn together!

Cheers

Britannicus

[mcbishop]

The sheepen belt plate has actually been done. I have one example. It was done on very thin sheet however.

It would be useful if this sort of experiment could be published. Saying a thing is a beltplate stamp is one thing, but showing that it could indeed be used that way is an important next step.

Mike Bishop

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Do you mean replicate the Sheepen stamp and try it on different materials?

Gaius
(Ralph)

[Matt Lukes]

It would be useful if this sort of experiment could be published. Saying a thing is a beltplate stamp is one thing, but showing that it could indeed be used that way is an important next step.
Mike Bishop

I recently read a rather interesting book titled 'Roman Crafts' (David Strong, ed., New York University Press, 1976) and in the section 'Bronze and Pewter' by David Brown (Assistant Keeper, Ashmolean Museum, Oxford), what is identified as an 'iron die used for embossing bronze sheet, from Wroxeter' (p. 39) is shown- now it's quite pitted, but a curling vine and floral design quite reminiscent of what's on the Fulham scabbard is still visible. I myself have just made a similar engraved brass die for a replica 'Wolf-and-Twins' balteus plate, and the results I get are excellent. It's very easy to produce highly-detailed plates with just a ball-peen hammer, a bit of leather and a couple of rounded punches (I haven't tried making a positive punch yet), so I can certainly see the engraved flat iron bar being just what Brown describes it as.

Is the experiment you're talking about Mike just trying to make a plate using an artifact 'die'- to prove that's what it is?

What I'd really like is to see the reverse of some of the scabbard plates to see if there's evidence of toolmarks suggesting they were made as I make my plates, or if they're clean suggesting a positive punch to press the sheet metal into the die.

Matt

[Crispvs]

Paulus,

"Is it possible that the design on Annaius ' belt was formed on a metal sheath (I forget whether this is type A or B) using the same punch as for the belts? That way, you would get a matching design, but not have individual belt plates on a pugio (which I agree- on going back to my books- that there is no evidence for).
The other advantage of using Annaius is that both his two belts use the same belt plate design- so you can build one stamp and make two 100% authentic belts to be worn together! "

If I understand you right, your suggestion is that a common die was used to place the design onto both the belt plates and dagger sheath.

Type 'A' plates were inscribed with a series of small punches, each of which made up particular elements of the often elaborate patterns on the plates. A single motif might be made up of several component shapes, each formed by its own particular punch. Grew and Griffiths' survey of belt plates contains a table of the shapes and sizes of punch used in belt plate decoration which is worth a look.
One or two of the punches used for belt plates might also have been suitable for use on certain elements of the designs on dagger sheaths, such as the small leaf shape, which could also be used for the leaves of the wreaths which are reasonably common decorations on dagger sheaths. The main tools which would have been used on dagger sheaths however, would have been gravers which could be used to inscribe lines which could then be inlaid with brass, silver or enamel. Gravers were also sometimes used to inscribe lines (often quite badly) onto type 'A' belt plates.
However, by now you have probably realised that what I am really saying is that unlike type 'B' plates, there was no one 'die' which was used to stamp patterns into either type 'A' plates (which is what I think Annaius' are intended to represent) or dagger sheaths. The patterns on both were made up of combinations of separate elements and the resultant patterns found on belt plates do not resemble the patterns found on dagger sheaths, although simplifications of both, which would be suitable for stone carving (where the sculpter could not hope to reproduce the level of detail achievable with metal) might come to resemble each other. The patterns on the sculpted stones are representative of the more detailed patterns to be found on the actual items in much the same way that ' ' can represent an actual smiling face, despite being a simplification of a face.
Incidentally, for the wearing of two belts, the sculptures show soldiers wearing both match and different sets of belts. Therfore any design of plate could be used for both belts and still be accurate.

Crispvs

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

After about 10 days of unrelenting back-to-back projects...

Paulus and Crispvs,

Ther are references to Grew and Griffith's survey and to type A and B plates. I am not familiar with either...

Is there an image of any "Annius" type plate available?

Also, taking a tip from Matt L, I realised I can cast a male and female bronze pattern and use them in a press... which should have occurred to me a while back...


Gaius
Ralph izard

[Crispvs]

If you send your snail mail address to my message box I will see if I can dig out my copy of Grew and Griffiths' article and send you a copy.

Crispvs

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Right On Brother! 8)
Right On! 8)
Right On! 8)
Right On! 8)

Gaius
(R. I.)