Black re-enactors

[Anonymous]

I think it is a cultural thing. re-enactment started out (I think) in the UK, then got big in the US and continental Europe. But while even here in The Netherlands it's not widely known (even if we have been at it for years and years), I heard in Italy it's even newer.
So maybe

a) It's not even widely known in Europe/USA
b) If known at all in other countires, it's percieved as something typically western?

Fair points in themselves, but they don't explain why black people in England, where re-enactment is familiar, don't get involved. Many black people complain, quite justifiably, that history ignores or actively conceals their contribution. I would have thought this would encourage participation in re-enactment.

[Arrian]

There are at least two black legionaries in Dan Petersons "roman legions recreated in colur photographs".
As that particular group consisted of (correct me if i'm wrong) american military personell stationed in germany, I assume they were african- american U.S soldiers. they are not in any of the full- figure portraits in the book, but you can see them in parades and group shots. They look very cool.

Despite a lot of non-western immigrants living in norway, only very few participate in reenactment. I think this is a result of poor integration of immigrants in the society at large and the fact that there is little crossover between immigrant subsections of society and the groups from wich most reenactors come. I do not believe this is a result of any racial bias in the reenactment gruops.

That said, I was just approached by a libanese-norwegian student here on the university of Oslo, who would like to join our group. So we might be on to something.

Here's hoping.

[Anonymous]

Good luck, Magnus!

[Crispvs]

I agree with those who feel that it is because many people think that it is a 'Western' thing. More to the point, many black people over here (especially those who have never studied history) take the view that any history which has been written will automatically have excluded them and that therefore any evocation of history, such as re-enactment, is culturally skewed and almost inherantly racist. Often these views are so entrenched that no amount of explaining that the involvement of black people might help to acknowledge their part in history will have any effect whatsoever. Most others simply express indifference to anything historical (like most of the population). Many black people here also see themselves as part of an 'urban' culture and do not look at much which happens outside the cities. Some of the same things could be said about the 'Asian' population.
About four years ago a young man of Pakistani origin, but who looked quite Middle-Eastern, wanted to join the R.M.R.S. as one of our Hamian archers. We were very enthusiastic about his wish to join, partly because we are always keen when someone wishes to join us, partly because most of us felt it would be a positive thing to have a member who could demonstrate in a practical way that re-enanctment is not just a 'white thing' and particularly because he would actually have looked believable as an auxiliary archer from Syria, which most of our other 'Hamian' archers do not. Unfortunately, his parents reacted with horror at his wish to join a re-enactment group and swiftly moved to prevent him being able to be involved. I don't know - perhaps they saw it as a 'white thing'.

About three years ago my wife (who is of Jamaican extraction) joined the group as a civilian. This was mainly so she could prevent herself from being a 're-enactment widow' for yet another year. However, she was made very welcome in the group and has always been popular, partly of course because her presence allowed the civilian section to demonstrate something of the cosmopolitan nature of the Roman empire. However, in truth the subject matter does not really interest her (prefering music and singing) and since an unfortunate event in Rome nearly two years ago she has rarely attended events and has not shown any desire to wear period clothing. Her presence was (and is) appreciated but at the end of the day, she really is not interested. She is not opposed to the hobby - it just does not interest her. Maybe this is the typical attitude amongst most people. Maybe it is stronger amongst 'ethnic minorities'. I'm not sure.

Crispvs :?

[Arthes]

Greetings,
somebody in ACWS was telling me a while back, that a couple of coloured guys wanted to portray slaves. (I can't remember where this was) They were perfectly happy about playing this part, but were turned down on some racist grounds.
I think it looks far more authentic to have those who look the part.
One of the reasons I am looking forward to Paul's bash next year....authentic Greek warriors...maybe some real Persians...
Not all warriors from our time period were 'white' they ranged in hue...
and people portraying cultures should have at least a couple of members who look and hopefully are the part..
I was watching Troy again earlier and thnking how much Eric Bana and Orlando Bloom did look related with their dark curly hair, although I would have said more Greek looking than Trojan..Some of the archers look quite the part when you looked closely.
I had not seen it for a while and realised where a ship scene had gone I thought had been cut from Kingdom of Heaven......hehe
regards
Arthes

[Anonymous]

I have noticed more black and Sub-Continental people getting out into the country during the holidays, over the years and I think this means they are becoming more comfortable outside of what are, effectively, urban ghettoes. Maybe we'll see more black re-enactors in the future.

[tlclark]

I think it is a cultural thing. re-enactment started out (I think) in the UK, then got big in the US and continental Europe. But while even here in The Netherlands it's not widely known (even if we have been at it for years and years), I heard in Italy it's even newer.
So maybe

a) It's not even widely known in Europe/USA
b) If known at all in other countires, it's percieved as something typically western?

I agree, it's a largely Anglosphere, and by extension, eurocentric phenomenon. I think that is in large part because, ironically enough, culture, national identity is no longer ethnically rooted in those countries.

That frees you up to imagine yourself in other roles that are outside your culture.

I met a British girl on the bus to Ouranopoli this december. She was a british student studying abroad. She was the daughter of immigrant greeks in England, her dad an orthodox priest. Ethnically, she was Greek in every possible way, yet she made it clear she thought of herself as British first.

My guess is that the reverse doesn't happen nearly as much. For example. My friend who interned at the Greek Evangelical Church in Athens commented that with the exception of a few African immigrants, the church is Greek, founded by Greeks, run by Greeks, and yet in the phone directory it's listed under "foreign religions".

I think the openness of the Anglosphere society allows people to be what they want to be and thus they can imagine themselves in other roles.

However that doesn't explain why African Americans aren't joining up. So who knows.

[Robert Vermaat]

However that doesn't explain why African Americans aren't joining up. So who knows.

I guess that may have to do something with another lack of identification. Even if you've accepted your country and it's history, that does not mean yo can automatically play a part in in.

It’s the same thing over here in The Netherlands, I have seen no large involvement so far from the extensive Indonesian, Surinam, Turkish or Moroccan population.

For example, a person from Norh African descent could do Roman re-enactment, but I guess not prehistory of anything before Arabs show up in The Netherlands again. So, most parts of Dutch history (and hence re-enactment of it) seem closed to then because no Arabs were present then.
He's looking out of place. Again, another diadvantage for an immigrant. Like possible the Medieval period in the UK would be unsuitable for black people?
I mean, personally I would not even hesitate to include any member because of ethnic origin, but I could see that a UK group doing the Wars of the Roses would hesitate when an Asian would apply.

And that’s maybe also a reason for the lesser involvement of ethnic minorities in western countries - they don’t have as much of the opportunities (once more) in re-enacting as we whity folks have, and I don't blame them for being less interested in it.

[ARudling]

Most of the Asian (Indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi) people I have had contact with still seem to regard themselves as from their ethnic background rather than British even though they are of at least the second generation here.
So I guess that whilst they may be interested in history of the country are born/living in they still dont connect with it on the same level some of us do.

I certainly wouldnt put anyone off joining a re-enactment group because of their ethnicity, in today's society that would be as wrong as could be ! (especially in the over PC bullshit society of the modern UK )

Besides we need more legionaries in our unit - our testudo is still only like a baby terrapin !
hock:

[Carlton Bach]

For example, a person from Norh African descent could do Roman re-enactment, but I guess not prehistory of anything before Arabs show up in The Netherlands again. So, most parts of Dutch history (and hence re-enactment of it) seem closed to then because no Arabs were present then.
He's looking out of place. Again, another diadvantage for an immigrant. Like possible the Medieval period in the UK would be unsuitable for black people?

I think that is a problem more acute in European reenactment, and it is something that bugs me no end myself: somehow, many groups assume they have an obligation to be local. By comparison, it seems the US scene is much more varied, with Syrian legions, crusader households, Tudor regiments and cavalier horse coexisting happily in the same area. I've been told more than once not to do Roman but 'something that has real meaning to us here' (that statement is wring at so many levels I don't bother with a refutation any more). I guess that kind of limited vision narrows down the options for people of other ethnic backgrounds.

As far as I'm concerned, why shouldn't the black and Middle Eastern reenactors to do Siculo-Normans, Ayyubids, Hellenistic era people?

[Anonymous]

As I have pointed out on a black forum, there are plenty of periods which are already being re-enacted, in which blacks and asians would not be out of place: Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Vikings ( who fought the Moors and took "Blue men" to Ireland), mediaeval (Crusades), American Civil War (as opposed to "The" Civil War) - and they wouldn't have to portray slaves, in fact, anything from the C19th, First and Second World Wars.

I think that a huge proportion of blacks and asians have unconsciously "bought" the idea that they weren't involved in the history of Europe and the West until very recently. The few who are aware that blacks are missing from the record ( or in the record, but largely ignored) don't seem to be the type to do re-enactment, with a very few notable exceptions.

[Comerus Gallus]

Who was Memnon, roman period?
his possible bust has his resemblance of a black person, I can see his prognatismos of his uper lip , hig cheecks,etc. And bronze bust of a 4th c. BC Berber horseman, I can act the part! :wink:

[hoplite14gr]

Memnon was Rodian mercenary who fought against Alexander. (poor sod!)

But Parian chronicle and Kointos of Smyrna talk of Memnon the Aithiopian prince who tried to aid the Trojans and was killed by Achilles.
Historically they could be Nubian Mercenaris hired by the Trojans or sent as aid from the Egyptians.
Greeks refered to all sub-Sacharan Africans as Aithiopians.

As I said before Herodtus talkes about an Afriacan warband with horse (zebra?) skulls as helmets and painted half red half white.

Sub-Sacharan African troops were possibly in Carthagenian service.

Kind regards

[Comerus Gallus]

How! Bravo Stefan! 8)

[size=150:1vbkunos]BTW: talking about Asian, I would like to be his bastard! 8) [/size]

[tlclark]

Well let's ask the question another way.

Let's say that a group of african descended peoples started a Zulu re-enactment group and they needed europeans to act as spear-fodder.

Would you join up?

Also in America I think the slavery issue is a problem. In the antebellum south, the plantation owners consciously took on Roman terms, names, and architectural styles.

I think re-enacting any slave society would be a problem for them, which is ironic, since in the Roman period, slavery wasn't based on ethnicity. You could in theory have a dark-skinned 'Roman' with a white person as a slave.

Travis