Shield design linked to units

[Caballo]

Theres been a lot of debate recently saying that the XIIII Legion is the only one with an identified shield design.

I think that there are at least two more

1/ Crispus of Leg VIII Augusta (now at Wiesbaden) showing a scutum with ansata and "90 degree" markings at the corners.



2/ Victor of Leg II Adiutrix (now at the Aquincum museum Budapest) showing an oval shield with a Medua head and thunderbolts



Both are in Robinson and Sumner (Roman Army: Wars of the Empire).

Given that we also know what helmets Leg II Adiutrix wore from archeological finds, and their origins from the fleet (marines?), I am suprised that there isn't a re-enactment unit of Leg II Adiutrix- particularly as there are some ex US Marines out there!

Regards

Paulus

[L C Cinna]

well, the 90 degree markings are the shield reinforcements added to the scutum during the 1st century, I think, not a design feature.

[GaiusManliusMagnus]

Haven't we found examples of the corners that are very thin. Like .025" or so. Hardly "reinforcement." That would be decoration in my book.

The Medusa head on the Leg II trooper could be an elaborate boss like this one


It is strange that nobody seems to do Marines, except that there'd be even more conjecture in such an impression than there already is in a Milite impression.

[Tarbicus]

Haven't we found examples of the corners that are very thin. Like .025" or so. Hardly "reinforcement." That would be decoration in my book.

Every extra piece of metal must be better than none.

Given that we also know what helmets Leg II Adiutrix wore from archeological finds,

Point the way to see them, even though I may have already. Any links to webpages or normal pages?

Cheers[/quote]

[Kevin J. Aschenmeier]

Sorry for going a bit off topic.
In the image posted by Gaius Manlius Magnus, is the Medusa winking?

I ask because she winks in the sky. The myth tells of how she could turn you to stone. Some say when she winks. In the sky, the constellation Perseus holds Medusa's head. Her one eye is the star al gol (the ghoul star) named so by the arabic peoples. Al gol is an eclipsing binary. It is really two stars orbiting one another. We usually see the combined brightness of the two. Once every three nights the one star moves behind the other and al gol dims. This is the Medusa winking at you.

If the Medusa on the image is actualy winking, it seems to show that the average Roman may have been aware of this.

Kevin

[Carlton Bach]

It is strange that nobody seems to do Marines, except that there'd be even more conjecture in such an impression than there already is in a Milite impression.

Isn't there a classis germanica in Germany somewhere?

[Praefectusclassis]

Uhhh, yes!
The Classis Germanica was responsible for all naval jobs on the Rhine from Bonn to the North Sea. Most recent lit: H.C.Konen, Classis Germanica (Pharos, St.Katharinen 2000)

[Marcus Germanicus Ferox]

Hi all

Anyone got any ideas for 1st century Leg II Aug designs, having some blanks made at the moment. Would be nice if there was something a little different from the ususal to put on them.

Ferox.

[GaiusManliusMagnus]

Kevin et Omnes,

I had never noticed before, but it does in fact look like she's winking. Cool story relating the cosmos to the myth, btw. I'm sure I'll be able to work that into discussions with patrons at our encampments.

Now I just need to make, or have made, one of these bosses. This photo is the real one from the Guttmann collection, as photographed by Leg VI"s own T. Flavius Crispus.

I've been debating making these in cast material. Flavius tells me that the original is a casting, rather than reposae (sp?). I'm a fair sculptor and could make the master, but I can personally only cast in urethanes, epoxies, and fiberglass. No metal casting skills, especially not the slush casting that would be needed to make it hollow. Anyone out there interested in double teaming such a product?

[Carlton Bach]

Uhhh, yes!
The Classis Germanica was responsible for all naval jobs on the Rhine from Bonn to the North Sea. Most recent lit: H.C.Konen, Classis Germanica (Pharos, St.Katharinen 2000)

No, I meant a reenactment group. I remember seeing something

and found it. I have no idea where their shield designs come from, but they look nice.

http://www.classis-germanica.de/

[caiusbeerquitius]

My gear is that of a trooper of the Danube fleet.

[Theodosius the Great]

Theres been a lot of debate recently saying that the XIIII Legion is the only one with an identified shield design.

I think that there are at least two more

Why is the scutum found at Dura omitted from the discussion ? Can't it be linked to a unit ?

It's the only shield design that has survived :? roll: )

[Tib. Gabinius]

Uhhh, yes!
The Classis Germanica was responsible for all naval jobs on the Rhine from Bonn to the North Sea. Most recent lit: H.C.Konen, Classis Germanica (Pharos, St.Katharinen 2000)

No, I meant a reenactment group. I remember seeing something

and found it. I have no idea where their shield designs come from, but they look nice.

http://www.classis-germanica.de/

As friends of this group i can inform you, that the sign shall show the rudder of a boat. I can ask them from where they got it.

[Flavius Promotus]

Rostovtzeff et al. have already tried to link the lion on the Dura rectangular with several legions. The most likely candidates (at least in the 1930s !) are XVI FLAVIA FIRMA or III CYRENAICA

My own shield shows a storck = III ITALICA :wink:

Caius, I will most likely be at Trier, too. See you there at the latest.

AURELIUS FLORIANUS = FLAVIUS PROMOTUS

[Daniel S Peterson]

Yes, those are both inscribed tombstones with shield representations, but the II Adiutrix one is IInd century, and an oval shield, which I believe unappealing for most legionary groups. There is also so little surviving equipment from the early IInd century, that it would be difficult do do this period accurately.

As for the VIIIth Aususta stele, the tombstone is so eroded that one cannot determine the actual shield design. The tabula ansata are very clear, and this suggests they may have been metallic esteuchons as we use in our group and as shown in Peter Connolly's "The Legionary". But nothing else can really be made out of the shield design.

There is more than just the shield emblem that makes LEG XIIII GMV the legion with the most 1st century evidence for reconstruction purposes.. There are steles showing the legions aquilifier, 2 signifiers, and several friezes from Mainz, probably made by LEG XIIII and which show a scutum with a very similar emblem to the Aquilifier one. Many of the most popular pieces of Roman military equipment (Italic D, Gallic D and G, Guttman gladius, etc) were found in close proximity to the LEG XIIII camp at Mainz and seem to date to that legions occupation period.

It is for all these reasons that LEG XIIII GMV would be the best choice if the Roman reenactment hobby were to be reformed to make a "national (or even international) legion" first of a full strength century, and eventually a cohort formed by cooperating smaller groups that focus on simply being an authentic conturburnia instead of a score of differently dressed and equipped "mini-legions" in which half their strength are officers. The American Civil War reenactment hobby has already discovered this organization technique, and are able to raise full battalions of hundreds of men, all happy to serve in the same unit, based on these small squads or "messes" of local friends.
Dan