orbiculi - officers only?

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Thanks Robert! wink:
Hey, what is the evidence for solid clavii and orbiculi, as shown in Graham Sumner's Roman Military Clothing 2?

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

I've been thinking about this process quite a bit. Aitor's method of transferring a historical orbiculi and clavii pattern to a tunic via iron-on transfers is probably our best "do-it-yourself" means of making an authentic tunic without having to weave them yourself or pay a professional craftsman, and I am truly not meaning to burst anyone's bubble here, as I too am interested in trying it myself, but I have just one question for us all to consider: wouldn't the iron-on transfers have a glossy, plastic-like sheen and feel over the pattern once ironed to the tunic? You know, like the texture of some T-shirt decals? If so, this might not look or feel authentic. What can we do to counter this?

[Robert Vermaat]

That depends on what is on offer for transfer paper. I have sweaters with completely invisible add-ons, which 'sank into' the fabric. But i also have stiff blocks that are very visible.
My only experiments with this technique did work out quite nicely, were it not for a disappointing color, which i did not quite manage... But the result was by no means artificial, printed as it was on actual linen similar to my tunic.

[Graham Sumner]

Hey, what is the evidence for solid clavii and orbiculi, as shown in Graham Sumner's Roman Military Clothing 2?

Hello L.A. Metellus

Which images from my book do you mean? If you mean the diagram of the tunics this was drawn at a very small scale so it was not possible to include the patterns in the orbiculi. However photographic details from some of the tunics indicated in this diagram were also included later on in the book showing close ups of the orbiculi. (for some reason the same diagram also shows a truncated image of the Thorsberg tunic!)

Or do you refer instead to the reconstruction of the Praetorian with plain orbiculi on his sleeves. If so this was based on an encaustic painting from Egypt showing a warrior god whose tunic was decorated in this way. A word of caution nevertheless. I have no idea of the scale of the figure so it is quite possible the Roman artist had the same problem of working at a tiny scale as I had!

Aitor however sent me a picture from Spain showing a woman wearing a tunic decorated with plain black orbiculi and a couple of mosaics from Britain also show plain orbiculi. However again this may be because of technical difficulties, the artists skill or type of medium used rather than a reflection of reality although we know from other sites such as Piazza Armerina that some Roman artists were more than capable of depicting these details even in mosaics.

Graham.[/quote]

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Hi Graham,
I am typing this at work, so I don't have my copy of your book in front of me, but the illustration of which I speak is the soldier with brown and red striped clavii on his sleeves, and he has a "swastika" pattern on the thigh area of his tunic. The brown and red stripes are what I am enquiring about. I particularly like that clavii pattern and am planning to replicate it on a new tunic of mine, and just wondered what its documentation was?

[Graham Sumner]

Hi Graham,
I am typing this at work, so I don't have my copy of your book in front of me, but the illustration of which I speak is the soldier with brown and red striped clavii on his sleeves, and he has a "swastika" pattern on the thigh area of his tunic. The brown and red stripes are what I am inquiring about. I particularly like that clavii pattern and am planning to replicate it on a new tunic of mine, and just wondered what its documentation was?

The source material for that figure is on page 19 of Roman Military Clothing 2. It is taken from the Great Hunt mosaic at Piazza Armerina. You should be able to find better quality pictures in colour in most books which feature scenes from that mosaic. There is no visible designs on either the clavi or orbiculi on that particular figure but many other characters on the same mosaic do have them.

Incidentally the same figure was the source for a tunic which is reconstructed and illustrated in Dan Peterson's book. However the British re-enactor decided not to add the swastika for P.C reasons!

Graham

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Thank you so much for that information, Graham, you are a great help to me! Also, I havn't forgotten that petasus reconstruction, I will make sure to let you see how my replica turns out. I too will probably leave off the swastika design on my tunic for the same reasons...I just don't want to open that can of worms out in public! I know that to the Romans it was an entirely different thing, but just try explaining that to some uninformed folks who don't know history...

[Graham Sumner]

Thank you so much for that information, Graham, you are a great help to me! Also, I havn't forgotten that petasus reconstruction, I will make sure to let you see how my replica turns out. I too will probably leave off the swastika design on my tunic for the same reasons...I just don't want to open that can of worms out in public! I know that to the Romans it was an entirely different thing, but just try explaining that to some uninformed folks who don't know history...

Rather than leave off the Swastika symbol I would be tempted to choose another tunic design altogether. There are plenty of other examples on the Piazza Armerina mosaic to base a complete tunic design from. On the other hand there is a whole new generation out there to whom the Second World War is either meaningless or ancient history, so why not try and explain it to those uninformed folks!

[Theodosius the Great]

I've just done a test trial using the transfer method. It turned out better than I hoped. It's fairly glossy but I think that effect can be toned down (the instruction sheet addresses this issue).

I'll be using this method soon on my real tunic.

Thank you, Aitor and Valerius, for all your help.

[Theodosius the Great]

Avete,

I've a question about a design motif seen on clavii in Graham Sumner's "Roman Military History (2)". Below is a picture of the Emperor Probus' tunic. On his clavii on the border and on his cuffs there's a T-shaped symbol (possibly shaped like an anchor ?).


Has anyone seen this before ? I'd like to replicate the design for my tunic, but I need to get a better idea of the exact shape.

Thanks for any help you can give ...

Theo

[Graham Sumner]

I've a question about a design motif seen on clavii in Graham Sumner's "Roman Military History (2)". Below is a picture of the Emperor Probus' tunic. On his clavii on the border and on his cuffs there's a T-shaped symbol (possibly shaped like an anchor ?).

This tunic is based on an example from Palmyra. A photographic detail is included in 'The Roman Heritage, Textiles from Egypt and the Eastern Mediterranean 300 t0 600AD', James Trilling, Washington 1982. Essential reading anyway.

In fact Aitor has already beaten you to it as his tunic illustrated earlier in this thread is based on the same tunic!

Graham

[Theodosius the Great]

Thank you, Mr. Sumner

I suspected Aitor had similar, if not the same, designs. It's a bit hard to tell from the pics since the symbols are so small :? .

I'll be getting the book soon :wink: .

Thanks again....

Theo

[Cacaius]

Hello

I have been to Victoria & Albert Museum few months ago.
There is a huge amonut of survived orbiculi parts from late roman tunicas.

I had no time and enough energy to make pictures for all of them. But I took more than 50 pictures there.

Please download them from here
(if in a future this link will not work, ask me directly for those pictures)

[Robert Vermaat]

Great stuff! Thanks Cezary!!

[maarten]

Interesting topic. I'm trying to reconstruct a early fourth century soldier and have used several books on clothing and orbiculae, including

James Trilling The Romans Hheritage, Textiles from Egypt and the Eastern Mediterranean 300 to 600 AD (Washington, The Textile Museum)
Claudia Nauerth, Dieter Ahrens, Die Koptische Textilein der Sammlung Wilhelm Rautenstrauch im Staedtischen Museum Simeonstift Trier
Koptische Weefsles, The Hague 1982.

It is evident that the orbiculae form tunics digger in size from 9 cm up to 30 cm (although some are even up to 47 cm (for cloaks).

I've reconstructed a white tunic with blue orbiculae form a find in Egypt. The tunic is not ready yet, but hereby a first picture take in Kelmarsh (England) last weekend.

greetings,

Maarten