orbiculi - officers only? - Printable Version

orbiculi - officers only? - Printable Version

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orbiculi - officers only? - Carlton Bach - 06-07-2005

I love those huge orbiculi on third and fourth cloaks, but now I read that they were indicators of rank limited to senior officers. Can anyone corroborate that? It strikes me as a strange idea, but I'll hold off putting my newfound orbiculi on my sagum. I have no aspirations that way.

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - aitor iriarte - 06-07-2005

Well, Carlton, although I cannot lecture uon that, I wouldn't take for granted that orbiculi (round patches) were used earlier that late third century and tabulae (square patches) earlier than late fourth.
You can see them at Piazza Armerina on common soldiers' tunics but perhaps, only on officers' cloaks (the late cloak was not exactly a sagum abd you can have it for sure that, by the late fourth century, if not earlier, it was a big elliptical piece of fabric folded in two to give a roughly semicircular shape) The men depicted on the Luxor frescoes were probably all officers and, therefore not accountable for your purposes.
Hope that this helps! Big Grin

Aitor

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - Theodosius the Great - 06-16-2005

Avete,

Does anyone know the approximate diameter of individual orbiculi from the late 3rd to early 4th century ?

I'm having a new tunic made....

Theo

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - aitor iriarte - 06-16-2005

Difficult to say, but bear in mind that the biggest ones are those on cloaks (one foot or more in diameter!) those on the shoulders are fairly smaller, but still on the big side, but those on the skirts must only have about half the diameter than the shoulder ones!
Ah, don't forget to put the shoulder orbiculi touching the clavi, without leaving a gap between orbiculus and pair of clavi! 8)

Aitor

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - Theodosius the Great - 06-16-2005

Quote:Ah, don't forget to put the shoulder orbiculi touching the clavi, without leaving a gap between orbiculus and pair of clavi!

Thank you for reminding me of that, Aitor :wink: .

I'll have to tell my supplier that.

Here's the basic prototype they're using :

[Image: latepertunic2.jpg]

My sleaves will be perfectly straight.

I plan to decorate my orbiculi myself with these designs :

[Image: floral1.jpg]

And maybe my clavii with these designs :

[Image: stamps.jpg]

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - aitor iriarte - 06-16-2005

Theo,
I was only talking about orbiculi (round), if tabulae (square) are used, then the result would be a little awkward if they touch the clavi (I should have a look again at my sources to see how late Romans made do with shoulder tabulae and clavi... :roll: )
About that tunic, the sleeves should not be sewn to the body. All the tunic must be made out of a single piece of cloth. It is not difficult today to find industrial textiles cuff-to-cuff wide, original Roman textiles just ran in the transverse direction (i.e. lower skirt-to-lower skirt) but nobody's perfect... :?
All six orbiculi were often a 'set' and they display the same motives. You can also use the running decoration of the clavi (remember that they should have a pointed or rounded end) for the cuff bands.
Finally, the cuff bands should be far more close together than they are (say, about half an inch)
Hope that helps Big Grin

Aitor

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - Theodosius the Great - 06-16-2005

That does help, Aitor.

Thank you, again Big Grin

I may go with one of these designs for the clavii :

[Image: clavii2.jpg]

Valerius seemed to indicate it may be appropriate.

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - Robert Vermaat - 06-16-2005

Sorry Theo,
I must have been miles away (small wonder with my big exam last tuesday - Yes I passed!), but i recall to have said something about these being recognisable patterns. But I recall also saying something about never having encountered a 'Celtic' motiv on Late Roman tunics..

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - Theodosius the Great - 06-16-2005

Quote:Sorry Theo,
I must have been miles away (small wonder with my big exam last tuesday - Yes I passed!), but i recall to have said something about these being recognisable patterns. But I recall also saying something about never having encountered a 'Celtic' motiv on Late Roman tunics..

Hi Valerius,

Glad you passed Big Grin

.

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess I'll go with the other examples then. My tunic comes this week.

Vale.

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - aitor iriarte - 06-16-2005

What do you think of this tabula Robert? Tongue

Aitor

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - Robert Vermaat - 06-16-2005

Ah, right! But is that a 'Celtic' pattern? Looks great though.

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - aitor iriarte - 06-17-2005

No, I cannot say thast it is exactly a Celtic pattern. Just kidding... :wink:

Aitor

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - Theodosius the Great - 06-19-2005

Avete, Aitor, Valerius,

Would you please rate these designs for decorating orbiculi ?

[Image: diamond.jpg]

Do any even look remotely historical ?

Thanks in advance Big Grin

...

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - aitor iriarte - 06-19-2005

Well,
Remotely... yes, sure.
If there wasn't anything more to choose among, I'd discard the right one and probably choose the middle one.
What is the problem, lack of original motives to copy or technical difficulties to pass them to the tunic? :?:

Aitor

Re: orbiculi - officers only? - Theodosius the Great - 06-19-2005

Quote:I'd discard the right one and probably choose the middle one.

Interesting choice, I thought that would be ranked last....

Quote:What is the problem, lack of original motives to copy or technical difficulties to pass them to the tunic?

Yes :lol: . Well, limited resources. I hear that most reenactors use paint to tranfer designs onto their tunic roundels. I thought this would be the way to approach the problem as well.

I'm unaware of a template that I can utilize that is an exact or close copy of an original orbiculi design (and I don't know how to make a template either :oops: ).

If you can provide any tips, Aitor, I'd be most gratetful.

Thank you again for your expertise :wink: .