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Typical... Of all the books on ancient navies I have, not a single one mentions the existence of this type of rudder and it is the very first time I learn of it..
It looks like a river boat. Actually this type of rudder --a paddle at the end of a pole, to make it simple-- still existed not so long ago on river barges.
..And another one of these "common knowledge" things going down the tubes. The single rudder did not come from China.. At least not this one.. :lol:
Danno is going to like this..
Pascal Sabas
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Quote:apparently it's a single rudder... Shocked
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEqui ... ology.html
Crikey, didn't they have big heads in those days! :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
A A A DESEDO DESEDO!
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Actually, in terms of rudder - it might be interesting to note that a ship found at Woerden in 2003 (I think) had a fairly obvious emplacement for a stern rudder such as the one shown on the RGM stone - even though it was of the Prahm type. So it seems they were rather wide-spread!
Not sure if there's been ny publication of it apart from in a general flyer about the excavation - but I'm sure Jasper will know!!! :wink:
Btw - Antonius Lucretius - if you are interested in coins with ship depictions (and anyonw else out there), try [url:2ebjzmyk]http://www.rgzm.de/Navis3/home/frames.htm[/url]
unfortunately only in German, but full of amazing coins!
Christoph Rummel
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Great coin site! Thanks.
And a few things about that ship:
- It looks like the rowers are standing up, contrary to a regular war galley.
- The rigging on the rudder seems designed to hold it in proper position. Any sailor out here who could give us more details?
- It could pretty well be a military barge of some kind, for heavy hauling. A close look at the helmsman shows several hints. His tunic has the characteristic "rhineland fold" shown on many a military stela. He seems to wear a paenula and a focale, and around his waist is clearly depicted the sash worn under the belt (ventralia??) shown on several other military sculptures, which was designed to prevent the tunic being damaged by the rubbing of the heavily studded military belt. It is also a useful support for the lower back, BTW.
I am not aware of the Woerden ship. Is it that type of big rectangular barge found on the Rhine?
The ship on the relief seems to have a pointed poop.
Pascal Sabas
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as for the woerden ship, yes it is one of those flat rectangular bargey things (Prahm type) also found at Zwammerdam etc, but slightly modified.
As for what you say about the stone - I am slightly wary in using stone sculpture for interpreting ship details - take the wine ship from Neumagen, for example. This shows a military type vessel with pointed poop and ram, while the "oarsmen" are not only standing up, but actually facing forward (and actually punting or staking the vessel???). Finally, the whole thing is loaded with gigantic barrels. Its not clear, whether this is a military vessel being *abused* for trade purposes, or in fact a representation of a trade vessel that draws on stock iconography... bottom line of my soliloquy :wink: :
I am not sure how much detail regarding ships we can interpret into stone monuments - especially as great liberties have been taken with regard to the scale of the sailord themselves...
sorry to be such a cynic and pessimistic b*****d! 8)
Christoph Rummel
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Me no think the Remagen ship is a warship. The "ram" in front is a bulb and has exactly the same hydrodynamic use as the bullbs on modern ships. I don't know the english term but in french it's called a "tranche mer" (a sea splitter). It allows better penetration in water. It is of course even more useful when propulsion is achieved by people pushing on oars.
And yes the rowers are facing forward and that makes me think even more of a civilian cargo ship. Rowing systems consisting of rowers standing up and facing forward were pretty much in use on rivers in later ages.
Actually this type of light cargo ship can be seen on a mosaic coming from I don't remember where....
Danno?
Pascal Sabas
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Frequently rowers standing and facing forward indicates that they are paddling rather than rowing. Witness this much earlier Egyptian tomb model:
[url:1lyz7s0n]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/DannoUlpius/naves/aegypt03.jpg[/url]
Or the Thera fresco:
[url:1lyz7s0n]http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis2/Objects/GR/GRObj0019Img03F.jpg[/url]
Or these two fragments of Samian ware:
[url:1lyz7s0n]http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis2/Home/FullDetailImage.cfm?ID=1212026530&ShipDepictionCode=DE_00009001&ObjectName=TrierSigillataScherbe1[/url]
[url:1lyz7s0n]http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis2/Home/FullDetailImage.cfm?ID=1328207826&ShipDepictionCode=DE_00010001&ObjectName=TrierSigillataScherbe2[/url]
Now standing facing forward, or at least facing forward, and *rowing*:
[url:1lyz7s0n]http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis2/Home/FullDetailImage.cfm?ID=270&ShipDepictionCode=DE_00032001&ObjectName=RGZMAfricanSamianO41259[/url]
Not sure what to make of this one:
[url:1lyz7s0n]http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis2/Home/FullImage.cfm?ObjectCode=DE_00366&ObjectName=FreiburgerBronze[/url]
Alec Tilley in Seafaring on the Ancient Mediterranean: New Thoughts on Triremes and Other Ancient Ships (leaving aside his ideas on Phoenician colonization) suggests that depictions like these show a ship backing water -- that is, rowing backwards.
[url:1lyz7s0n]http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis2/Home/FullImage.cfm?ObjectCode=PO_0001&ObjectName=AmeixoalMosaic[/url]
Too bad this was destroyed in 1729, original ca. 400:
[url:1lyz7s0n]http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis2/Home/FullDetailImage.cfm?ID=-1518366374&ShipDepictionCode=TR_00005002&ObjectName=ArcadiusColumn[/url]
Cutwaters (tranche mer, called a rostrum in Latin just like the prow on a warship) are also very common on small (civilian) boats.
That should stir up the waters for a while...
This Navis II site ([url:1lyz7s0n]http://www2.rgzm.de/Navis2/Home/Frames.htm[/url]) is horribly useful. I don't know why I even bother with any of my projects anymore... it will just be done a thousand times better and quicker in Germany. Or maybe I should go to school in Germany.
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Thanks Danno...
The one thing that speaks in your favor is that you didn't get support from the EC... :lol:
But yes, I reckon it's a great site..
Pascal Sabas
