Hello All!
Just spent a couple of hours floating through all sorts of discussion threads - and thought I'd start a new one
. Anyone know anything / Want to discuss anything about the various fleets of the Romans?
I'd be particularly grateful if anyone could let me know of decent material on the Moesian and Pannonian fleets - as regards bases etc.
Also, anyone up for a discussion of whether we can even talk about "The Roman Navy" - one of the many bones I have to pick with Starr....
Quote:Also, anyone up for a discussion of whether we can even talk about "The Roman Navy" - one of the many bones I have to pick with Starr....
Sure!
Or how about a discussion about his "The Influence of Seapower on..." (which I seem to have misplaced now)?
Misplacing/Losing "The influence of sea-power ..." seems to be in fashion at the moment... but we could still try and discuss it from memory!:wink:
I was thinking more of arguing to what extent we can even speak of a "Roman Navy" as such! - Surely they were individual, completely autonomous units and ought to be seen as such? I find the term Navy highly misleading, as it gives the impression of a modern large scale unit - if anything, surely each "classis" must then be seen as a "navy" in its own right? Or is anyone aware of any evidence for overall control?
There goes controversy...:x
Lucius
Well, I think you're right in saying that there was not much in the way of central control. The praefects at Ravenna and Misenum were independent, except when Bassus was both simultaneously for a few months in 69... if I'm recalling correctly, which I may not be.
There's the question of vexillations of the Misene or Ravennate fleets stationed at various points e.g. Syria vs. "true" provincial fleets e.g. Classis Syriaca.
Sailors from both Italian fleets apparently served at the Colosseum, for what that's worth.
Dear Christoph,
nice to see you here !
'magister navalis' is also a RAT member - which means all persons who are currently producing something about Roman fleets and who I personally know are here on this board.
The only problem: RNT (Roman navy talk) is hard to pronounce :wink:
"I was thinking more of arguing to what extent we can even speak of a "Roman Navy" as such! - Surely they were individual, completely autonomous units and ought to be seen as such? I find the term Navy highly misleading, as it gives the impression of a modern large scale unit - if anything, surely each "classis" must then be seen as a "navy" in its own right?"
Someone (Michael Bishop?) has argued the Roman Army should not be seen as a monolithic "army" in the modern sense, and obviously the same can be said about the Roman fleet, or rather fleets.
To see each classis as an individual "navy" goes perhaps too far, but individual fleets ? Certainly ! On the other hand, they could be geared together if necessary (think of the anonymous who probably commanded classes Moesica, Pannonica, Germanica AND Britannica simultaneously!).
Furthermore, officers and even rank and file members could be transferred, or probably "borrowed" to other units, so a certain cohesion should have existed.
Just my opinion
Ulpius ir right. Sailors from the fleet at Misenum did
serve in the Colosseum. They operated the rigging
that moved the canvas 'sun-shades' out over the
audience to keep the sun off them. The system was
derived from the rigging that raised and lowered
the sails on board naval vessels, and the sailors
were the obvious choice to operate it :wink:
Ambrosius
oooh, lots of new thoughts!
I agree, Florian, that the fleets could of course be pooled - but surely so can modern ones? Not that I want to get into comparisons with the modern world, they always end up slightly abstract... Interesting, though, does anyone *know* of any evidence for centralized control at all? There is of course the Praetorian Fleet praefect (whats his name again?) who was in charge of Ravenna AND Misenum, and there are a couple of indicators that the provincial fleets could all be pooled for large scale military campaigns (Marcomannic Wars and the guy in charge of the CLBRIT, CLGPF, CLPANN & CLFLM, as you say) - but how would this have worked? Surely they cannot have been the entire navies, but must have been vexillations??
As for the Colosseum, am still intrigued on how the vela would have worked exactly - there are all these sail theories, and literary references as well as a few inscriptions, but ... HOW????? And why fleet soldiers? There are several mosaics from El Djem, for example, that show this amphitheatre, too, had vela - but no indications (literary or epigraphic) of anyone specific necessary to operate them...
So many questions...
I believe that in the case of Valerius Maximianus (that guy with lotsa fleets under his command), he just had a vexillation of naval troops there who would man locally requisitioned or locally built ships.
L.A. Pantera says: "And why fleet soldiers? (There are)
... no indications (literary or epigraphic) of anyone
specific to operate them".
From: David J.P. Mason's 'Roman Britain and the
Roman Navy' (p.19):
"Going by the evidence of their tombstones, the largest
detachment from the Misene fleet was stationed at Rome
itself... Part of their duties included responsibility for
operating the large awnings in the Colosseum, which
provided shade for the audience." :wink:
Ambrosius
I believe L.A.P. was referring to the amphitheater at El Djem, and the lack of any such tombstones there, as opposed to at Rome... which in my opinion may just be an accident of survival of evidence.
IIRC there the Velarii among the fleet personnel in Rome are usually thought to have been the ones responsible for the handling of the awnings.
I was, indeed, referring to the El Djem amphitheatre.
If the absence of sailor inscriptions from other amphitheatres bar the the one at Rome is due to "survival of evidence", however, then surely the "multitude" of tombstones at Rome must be due to the reverse accidentality - as more inscriptions are known from here than anywhere else in the Roman world. Thus any thesis of this being the "largest" detachment must surely be conjecture (see Mason quote above)?
Basically what I am trying to say is that there are numerous large amphitheatres throughout the Roman world, but only at Rome is there any evidence for fleet soldiers present. Indeed, there are velarii at Rome, but there are also other soldiers. What then, are they doing there? Could there not be some other possible explanation for the Misene Fleet detachment at Rome? (Not that I have a solution...)
Well, they could no doubt have acted as riot control etc. , and they were barracked right in the center of the city. But emperors surely wouldn't have wanted to emphasize their military presence, hence their official position as workers in the Colosseum. Just a conjecture...
Found this on the excellent Roman Numismatic Gallery...
Scroll all the way down to the sculpture of a very strange ship's poop..
Amazing. This does not look at all like the regular ancient steering oars system but apparently it's a single rudder...
hock:
[url:au4fmmvu]http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Technology.html[/url]
Yup. That thing's actually in the RGM in Köln and does show a single rudder (see the step the steersman is standing on?), used across the stern.