Saint Patrick & Names along the Antonine wall

[MonsGraupius]

What was he for the first 16 years? Deaf and mute?

According to his own testimony, he was too lazy and sinful to learn! ("My sins then prevented me from really taking in what I read")

If you are trying to argue the various Latin terms means he was brought up in a Latin speaking area, then you are also arguing that he was speaking Latin until he was 16. If you're not arguing he was speaking Latin till 16, then you are arguing he was not brought up in a Latin speaking area ... hence no reason at all against Strathclyde.

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!

ALL THE CRAP ABOUT HIM HAVING TO BE BROUGHT UP IN A LATIN SPEAKING PART OF BRITAIN IS RUBBISH.

Do you always react to criticism in this way?

It's not rubbish - he says himself that he considers himself to be Roman. The 'foreign language' he mentions is Irish. He, and his father and grandfather, have Latin names.

I do when you're trying to argue black is white

This is virtually indistinguishable from Neutur which scholars agree is likely Nemthur.

See my added note to the post above. The mention of 'Neutur' (ineutur) in the Black Book looks very dubious. Only one Victorian antiquarian suggests that it refers to 'Nemthur'.

Does it add to the weight of evidence for Kilpatrick with the close by Notyr or not? Unless you can show me a positive identification to somewhere else the answer is it does.

I don't see you pointing out the obvious flaws with places like Glannobanta.

I never suggested Ravenglass - that was John, I think.

So where are you suggesting? Banwen?

Sure, if you "correct" both names to make them look similar and then compare them

Is that not what you're doing?

All I do is take MEDIONEMETON and split it to MEDIO & NEMETON.

Then NEMETON IS compared with the various names (Gaelic) NEMTHUR & Latin (NEMTURRI).

The main difference is a single letter ... the last n ... which could easily be a copy mistake for r (n/r)

Old Kilpatrick has strong historical evidence.

I didn't think there was any evidence for who might have been living at Old Kilpatrick in the 5th century.

We have three of the five lives saying Strathclyde and Dumbarton Rock. THERE IS NOTHING GIVING ANYWHERE ELSE FOR HIS BIRTHPLACE. All the historic evidence points to one area around Kilpatrick.

the evidence is clear that Latin was a foreign language.

I don't think you can read that reference in the Confession to mean anything but Irish. Matter of opinion, I guess!

Patrick in his own words calls Latin a “foreign language”.

“Nam sermo et loquela nostra translata est in linguam alienam”
Whereas this speech and utterance of mine is here transformed into another tongue; (Confessio 9)

If Patrick has been brought up within the Roman empire, by a Latin speaking Roman town councillor, not only would he have spoken Latin at home, but he would be expected to learn good Latin at School. A Roman town would certainly have at its disposal the services of a grammaticus who would teach pupils standard latin on the best classical models (Bieler, 1967).

The very evidence used to dismiss Strathclyde: the Latin Patrick uses, is the evidence that shows he was not born in Latin speaking Roman Britain. For Patrick was so poor at Latin, that Mohrmann (1961), described Patrick's writing as “the most difficult Latin to understand and to criticise that I have ever studied.” Professor Binchy described his writing as the 'simple Patrick of the Confessio', a writer of 'stumbling barbarous Latin' (Binchy 1962). This shows Patrick was not brought up in a Latin speaking home as those arguing against Strathclyde assert.