Saint Patrick & Names along the Antonine wall

[MonsGraupius]

he himself says that Latin is a "foreign language" and those that critique it call it "barbarous". So, the linguistic evidence shows Patrick WAS NOT born in Latin speaking Roman Britain.

I don't think this is what he means.

Patrick is saying (I think) that he is unable to express himself in Latin as well as he would like because at an early age he was taken prisoner and made to speak another language - meaning Irish.

He is quite clear that prior to his captivity he read and listened to Christian teachings, i.e. in Latin. His father and grandfather also had Latin names, and he was captured in a place with a Latin name too.


All of Patrick's writings, together with later biographies, can be found in translation here (including the letter to 'the soldiers of Coroticus' mentioned in this thread above: "I live as an alien among non-Roman peoples, an exile on account of the love of God"...)

Patrick was SIXTEEN when he was taken captive. And held captive for a mere SIX years. That's not that different from someone going to university in Scotland (traditionally 17 and for 4 years). What was he for the first 16 years? Deaf and mute?

He was clearly NOT brought up in a Latin speaking household and so ALL THE CRAP ABOUT HIM HAVING TO BE BROUGHT UP IN A LATIN SPEAKING PART OF BRITAIN IS RUBBISH.

Indeed many of the advocates of Wales use exactly this point to say he was born in Wales. But the historical evidence clearly points to Strathclyde.

The location where Patrick was born (Nemthur) is recorded in the black book of Carmarthen as the fortress of "Neutur"

It looks like this is the interpretation by William Forbes Skene in 1868: "Neutur, or Nevtur — is probably the same place mentioned by Fiech in his Life of St. Patrick, written in the eighth century, as Nemhtur or Nevtur. It is identified by his scholiast with Alclyde or Dumbarton."

'Probably' suggests that the original text itself does not make this connection, I think, and we are back to this anonymous 'scholiast' again.

What does the passage from 'The Black Book of Carmarthen' actually say?

The key is that at Old Kilpatrick there is a place whose earlier recorded name is Dou-notyr (my hyphen). This is virtually indistinguishable from Neutur which scholars agree is likely Nemthur. This shows that Dalnotter had very likely retained the name of Neutur, or as it was before Nemthur/Nemeton.

But aren't you guilty of double standards?

I don't see you pointing out the obvious flaws with places like Glannibanta**. There's not one shred of historical evidence, and the name match is appalling. How can you suggest that "Bannavem taberniae" is Glannobanta (the form that was originally recorded). Sure, if you "correct" both names to make them look similar and then compare them, you might be able to fool the gullible. But if you compare the earliest forms the match is diabolical.

**All the variatnt
Clanoventa in Iter X of the Antonine Itinerary,
Glannibanta in the Notitia Dignitatum
Cantiventi in the Ravenna Cosmology

And what about Banwem - which rests on the say so of what some 8 year old thought he was told me his Grandfather (who probably just made it up based on some speculation he heard, as there was a paper not long before suggesting the name could be linked to any of the numerous "Banwens"). Or what about the place in Northamptonshire? Which is not exactly near the sea.

Old Kilpatrick has strong historical evidence and it has cast iron name matches (three places all in the right place). But you prefer appalling name matches with no historical evidence ... on the basis he must have spoken Latin ... when the evidence is clear that Latin was a foreign language.