Saint Patrick & Names along the Antonine wall

[MonsGraupius]

In his grandfather's position, as a priest, would you stay around to suffer a similar fate? But, the Roman empire stretched from Africa to Scotland, so where could you go in Britain, except north toward Strathclyde or perhaps to Ireland?

There was no 'similar fate'.

St Alban probably did not exist (he is unknown before the AD390s - a decade when all sorts of martyrs were being invented and promoted - and his story does not fit any known episode of persecution in Britain). The persecution ordered  by Diocletian in AD303 was never enforced in Britain, which was under the control of Constantius Chlorus.

So there would be no reason for the (very few) Christians in Britain at the time to flee anywhere. Even in places where the persecution was enforced most severely, we do not hear of Christians fleeing to seek shelter with barbarians outside the empire.

There is plenty of evidence for Christians in Britain in the form of Chi Rho symbols and similar found on all manner of artefacts and beheading was a typical form of execution used by Romans. Surely if you were making up a saint, you'd have picked some better form or martyrdom than the typical execution of the Romans?

Nothing you have put forward has shown me to be wrong in any point. 

Nor would it - except in the case of the persecutions (for which we have historical evidence) nothing you are discussing could be proved either right or wrong, without some new evidence to support it.

It may well be that Patrick was from Strathclyde (although the 10th-century scholiast just says that 'nem Thur' was Altcluid). It could be that the names on the Antonine Wall were as you suggest; there's nothing to say they were not. But I do not think any of this is 'compelling evidence', as you suggest, or that it 'securely assigns' the meanings you are putting forward.

First, St.Alban is not the only Martyr. I will quote:

Bede (Caps 6-8) tells us that during the Diocletian persecutions c303AD, that there were martyred in Britain Stephen and Argulius, both bishops of London; Socrates, Bishop of York; Amphibalus, bishop of Llanduff; Nicholas, Bishop of Penrhyn; Melior, bishop of Carlisle; St.Albans; Julius and Aaron priest in Caerleon; and over 889 communicants in different grades of society" (Martyrology of Nother, 894AD; Haddan and Stubs, Vol. 1, P. 32; Gildas 516-570AD, De Excidio Brittaniae, Hist. VIII, Section 10,10). The terrors of this persecution in Britain were recorded by friend and foe. Constantius, of Lyons, who wrote the life of Germanicus Poitiers, 500AD, and Venantius Fortunatus, Bishop of Poitiers 530-609AD, both of the friendly Gallican Church, and the Venerable Bede, of the hostile Saxon on (673-735AD), alike tell the story of St.Alban, Amphibalus, Aaron and Julius.

I suggest it is you that is being misled. The British church was established long before St. Augustine came to Canterbury in 597AD as the multitude of early Christian artefacts & known parsonalities show. Indeed, even the British mother of emperor Constantine who made Christianity official c312AD is said by Sozomen's Historia Ecclesiastica, to have picked up her Christianity in Britain. Whether this is true or not, is debatable, but whether it could be is not. Because there is ample evidence for early Christianity.

Indeed, far from overstating the amount of Christianity in Britain, the evidence is that the Catholic church has been telling the opposite story: that they started Christianity here with Augustine in 597AD and for good reason as this was a reason why the British church would be subject to Rome. That is total nonsense! So, rather than overstating the case for those like St.Alban, as you suggest, it if far more likely you are restating "pro-Rome" propaganda downplaying the importance of the early church in Britain. Until relatively late, and despite Augustine, Britain had an independent church which was not founded by Rome - and therefore Rome had no jurisdiction over Britain (which as you might guess was not appreciated there).

The Alternatives To Old kilpatrick

You've made a lot of criticism of Old Kilpatrick, so please do tell me what you think of the other suggestions such as that Saint Patrick was born in Northamptonshire?

Let's review the case?

Does any ancient source say he was born in England? No
Does Northamptonshire have any early connection with Saint Patrick? No.
Is Northamptonshire a likely place to be raided by Pirate? Certainly Not! (Middle of the country)
Does it have a chance name similarity with the place of his birth (Nemthur)? No!
Does it have a chance name similarity with his Grandfather's home? Yes (but only after it is mangled).
Is there any other compelling reason to pick this place? No!

Score 1/500 (around 500 place names - several of which have similar likenesses)
In other words, this idea of Northamptonshire is just that out of 500 Roman names, this one is similar. It could be any other place, it just happened to be there (or a couple other with less similar names)

What about Old Kilpatrick:
Does any ancient source say he was born in ? Yes (They mention near Dumbarton Rock)
Does Old Kilpatrick have any early connection with Saint Patrick? Yes (The name)
Is Old Kilpatrick a likely place to be raided by Pirate? Yes! (It's on the sea)
Does it have a chance name similarity with the place of his birth (Nemthur)? Yes! (Nemeton)
Does it have a chance name similarity with his Grandfather's home? Yes. (Bannatia is given on Ptolemy as being close)
Is there any other compelling reason to pick this place?
1. Two other name matches at Medio (Balmuildy) and Sub-Dobiadon (Dumbarton)
2. It is a place where Christians would flee - being "Romanised" but not "Roman".
3. We are told the references to Saint Patrick as "Decidedly northern"

Score 6/6 (The name at one place: Old Kilpatrick matches Nemthur)

Devil's Advocate

So, Let's just assume that those asserting that St.Patrick was born in England were right? (despite the texts saying he was born in Strathclyde)

How does that affect the argument?
1. Medio still matches Bal-Muildy
2. Sub-Dobiadon still matches Dumbarton
3. Nemeton still matches Dal-notyr
(Note: hyphens added to help highlight similarities).

Likewise, even if Dumbarton or Balmuidy were totally different - we still have good matches in other places.

Thus the argument does not stand or fall on any one element. Instead each element both stands on its own but also adds to the likelihood that the others are correct.

It is overwhelmingly compelling.