Supplicant Soldiers' Relief from Istanbul

[Renatus]

The only reason I stated that a large number of historians equate the fragments with the Column of Arcadius is the fact there were reliefs of ships on that column, and the foundations of the Hamami still have some fragment of ships as shown in my photographs. There is no evidence that Theodosius fought a naval battle against the Goths as far as I am aware but we know Gainus and his Goths suffered a Naval defeat against the Romans. Hence this is why the fragments are believed to come from the Arcadius column and not the Theodosian one.

Do a large number of historians equate the fragments with the Arcadius Column? I don't know of any but perhaps I'm not looking in the right places. Both the Theodosius Column (Menestrier) and the Arcadius Column (Freshfield) show men in ships but neither depicts a sea battle as such, so I don't think that a ship in the Beyazit fragments is in any way determinative. These ships could just be transports. In any event, if historians argue that the fragments come from the Arcadius Column, they do have to get around the difficulty of the comparative histories of the columns and the baths.

[Renatus]

Both the Theodosius Column (Menestrier) and the Arcadius Column (Freshfield) show men in ships but neither depicts a sea battle as such, so I don't think that a ship in the Beyazit fragments is in any way determinative.

I'll correct myself before anyone else does. There is a sea battle shown in the Freshfield drawing of the Arcadius Column and also what may be an opposed landing. However, there are several other ships that seem simply to be transporting troops, as appears to be the case with the ship in the Menestrier drawing. This, therefore, does not alter my basic point, namely, that the presence of a ship in the Beyazit fragments need not denote a sea battle or draw one to the conclusion that the fragments came from the Arcadius Column, which in any case seems to be chronologically impossible.

[Nathan Ross]

There is a sea battle shown in the Freshfield drawing of the Arcadius Column... the ship in the Menestrier drawing.

Any chance you could link or show images of these ships on the reliefs? I'm just interested what they look like really...

There was supposedly a 'marble liburnian' in central Constantinople (mentioned in the Notitia Urbis Constantinopolitanae I think), often connected to the defeat of Gainas; I've wondered before whether it might in fact relate to the Hellespont battle of AD324 (more directly related to the foundation of the city)...

[Robert Vermaat]

(incidentally, we seem to have veered off the original topic of the Aemilianus inscription -  I wonder if a helpful moderator could split the thread at post #12 (Mark's one, with the picture) under a new title? ''Supplicant Soldiers' Relief from Istanbul' maybe? - suppliant and supplicant seem to be synonyms, so either word would do...

Good thought.

[Nathan Ross]

Good thought.

Thanks Robert!

[Renatus]

Any chance you could link or show images of these ships on the reliefs? I'm just interested what they look like really...

Here are Freshfield drawings of the west, south and east faces of the Arcadius Column (the north face was presumably not accessible to the artist) plus part of the single face shown on a drawing in the Bibliotheque Nationale, all showing ships:

                 

                 

                 

   

And here is an image that I showed in the '4th Century Gear' thread which includes the Menestrier ship as well as some of the Freshfield ships. Menestrier's drawings are his interpretation of some earlier sketches made by Gentile Bellini that have not survived and, therefore, owe much to Renaissance ideas of what Roman soldiers etc. looked like:

   

[Nathan Ross]

Here are Freshfield drawings... as well as... Menestrier's drawings

Thanks!

Most of these look like transport ships, except perhaps one in this image, which might be a warship. It does look rather like river transport as well. Shipping on the Danube, perhaps?

[Longovicium]

I have some images on my Barcarii FB site here:

https://www.facebook.com/pg/The-Barcarii...4666237976

Although, to be honest, I am a little lost over which column and which artist is involved!

[Nathan Ross]

I have some images on my Barcarii FB site

Excellent stuff - I hadn't had a proper look through them before. Plenty of those petals/leaves shield designs, again with the chi-rho ones. I presume those 'Scotch bonnet' things the soldiers seem to be wearing were actually Pannonian caps!

There does seem to be some ship-to-ship combat, and an opposed landing (all using pikes!), but the ships involved appear again to be transport barges rather than warships of the liburna type. This would fit, I think, with Michael Charles's idea that the seagoing 'navies' of the late 4th-5th century were basically made up of Naves Onerariae.

[Renatus]

Although, to be honest, I am a little lost over which column and which artist is involved!

That is the Arcadius Column as illustrated in the Freshfield volume. The identity of the artist seems to be uncertain.

[Longovicium]

Thanks, Renatus.

I do think the images hold some fascinating details underneath the palimpsest of the different perspectives. It is such a shame the Column no longer stands in all its glory!

Nathan, thanks for the link to the Charles' article - much appreciated.