Supplicant Soldiers' Relief from Istanbul

[markhebb]

Where is the stone kept now, any idea? (If in Turkey I'm off to there the end of March for a couple of weeks)

Will you continue the search for the 'Suppliant Soldiers' (I hope)?

These supplicant soldiers?

[Renatus]

These supplicant soldiers?

Yes: not visible on Adrian's earlier visit to Istanbul. See this post:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/thread-...#pid299681

[markhebb]

These supplicant soldiers?

Yes: not visible on Adrian's earlier visit to Istanbul. See this post:
http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/thread-...#pid299681

Speidel has an interesting take on these soldiers - although i disagree with his belief that the Scholae Palatinae were the bodyguards of Magnus Maximus.

See-  

Speidel, M.P. (1995) 'Die Garde des Maximus auf der Theodosiussaüle', Istanbuler Mitteilungen 45

[Nathan Ross]

his belief that the Scholae Palatinae were the bodyguards of Magnus Maximus.

Wot? Eh? Does he mean all the scholae palatinae? Surely not? MP Speidel continues to amaze, apparently...

Adrian's earlier visit to Istanbul.

I was in Istanbul last summer, and searched for this relief without success - I went all around the building, and I could find nothing - just one fragment (not this one) poking out of the grass at the front.

Unless the reliefs have been moved to a different location, they are currently entombed under either concrete or opaque perspex.

[markhebb]

his belief that the Scholae Palatinae were the bodyguards of Magnus Maximus.

Wot? Eh? Does he mean all the scholae palatinae? Surely not? MP Speidel continues to amaze, apparently... [img]http://cdn.romanarmytalk.com/rat/images/icons/shocked.png[/img

Well...here it gets tricky. How many SP units actually existed in the 4th century? I suspect not the full complement of 12 listed in the ND. Aside from that there's the question of whether only the SP carried the Chi-Rho on their shields as in that frieze......my beef however is I think the SP weren't 'permanent' bodyguards. i would argue that different emperors used different troops....

[Renatus]

Aside from that there's the question of whether only the SP carried the Chi-Rho on their shields as in that frieze

There are other shield motifs on that relief. What does he make of those?

[Nathan Ross]

How many SP units actually existed in the 4th century? I suspect not the full complement of 12 listed in the ND.

Interesting. Why wouldn't they, do you think? Surely by the end of the 4th century the roster of units in the ND would have been more or less complete?

the question of whether only the SP carried the Chi-Rho on their shields

Hmm, yes. We know somebody did, and by the mid-4th at the earliest (missorium of Constantius II). My guess might be that the shields were reserved for the Candidati, as a mark of their proximity to the emperor(s) - a small unit of 40 picked men may not have been recorded in the ND list. However, the guards on the Ravenna mosaic are carrying chi-rho shields, and are dressed in green, not white...

About that 'supplicant' relief (which also features the 'flower petal' shield emblem, I think) - it looks like they're receiving something from the emperor, or performing the adoratio purpurae - what sort of soldiers might have done this?

[ValentinianVictrix]

I am hopefully going to have at least a day trip to Istanbul on my trip over there. I don't want to spend too much time there due to on-going problems in that city, its not as safe as when I went there several years ago unfortunately.

I honestly believe that the 'supplicant soldiers' stone has been removed and probably sold to a collector. I hope to be proved wrong if it turns up in the museum but to be honest I doubt very much it has been preserved. We must not forget that the Turkish people as a whole have but a passing interest in anything before the Ottoman period in Turkey, as they were at pains to tell me during my last research trip. Hence they see no problem in digging a trench through the old Forum Tauri site with no archaeologists present, or digging up huge blocks of white marble after demolishing a building and leaving them stacked to one side of the construction site or removing sections of the Theodosian Walls to use as building materials for their houses.

[Renatus]

I honestly believe that the 'supplicant soldiers' stone has been removed and probably sold to a collector. I hope to be proved wrong if it turns up in the museum but to be honest I doubt very much it has been preserved.

Scroll down this page for some encouraging information:
http://www.thebyzantinelegacy.com/theodosius-column

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About that 'supplicant' relief (which also features the 'flower petal' shield emblem, I think) - it looks like they're receiving something from the emperor, or performing the adoratio purpurae - what sort of soldiers might have done this?

Might the 'flower petal' design actually be leaves? Another shield has a tendril pattern and yet another seems to be plain.

   

I wondered whether the unarmed soldiers might have been captives from the army of Magnus Maximus begging for pardon and the soldiers with shields their guards.

[ValentinianVictrix]

It would be great if the stone with the Supplicant Soldiers relief has been saved. I'm wondering now if its not in the restored Hamami building itself?

As to the Soldiers and their gear- having closely inspected another stone with similar relief's on them in the Istanbul Archaeological Museum I can say that they all wear Muscle Cuirasses with defined rims around the edges. Most of the infantry have spears and shields and the shield design is the Chi-Rho symbol. This is exactly what is seen in other photographs of the 'missing'(presumed found) Supplicant Soldier stone.

I have no idea why anyone connects them with any one else other than the Emperor Arcadius as we know that the stones were all taken from the Column of Arcadius, erected to commemorate the victory over Gainas in 400AD and erected in 425AD. It was badly damaged by earthquakes and by a fire and then was torn down, the rubble used in the building of the Hamami foundations. The base of the column still exists off Beyazit Square in Istanbul.

[Renatus]

It would be great if the stone with the Supplicant Soldiers relief has been saved. I'm wondering now if its not in the restored Hamami building itself?

The photograph shows the relief exhibited in a museum setting (and remarkably unscathed, considering that it had had a flight of concrete steps erected against it). The caption states that it is in the Beyazit Hamam museum. I assume, like you, that part of the restored building has been set aside as a museum. Either that or there is a separate museum nearby. An enquiry would be worthwhile, if you have time when you are there.

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As to the Soldiers and their gear- having closely inspected another stone with similar relief's on them in the Istanbul Archaeological Museum I can say that they all wear Muscle Cuirasses with defined rims around the edges. Most of the infantry have spears and shields and the shield design is the Chi-Rho symbol. This is exactly what is seen in other photographs of the 'missing'(presumed found) Supplicant Soldier stone.

I am aware of a similar relief in the Archaeological Museum but that only shows the inside of the shields. Do you have a photograph of any showing the shield design?

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I have no idea why anyone connects them with any one else other than the Emperor Arcadius as we know that the stones were all taken from the Column of Arcadius, erected to commemorate the victory over Gainas in 400AD and erected in 425AD. It was badly damaged by earthquakes and by a fire and then was torn down, the rubble used in the building of the Hamami foundations. The base of the column still exists off Beyazit Square in Istanbul.

I don't think that we 'know' anything of the sort. Scholarly opinion has long held that the reliefs built into the Beyazit Hamam came from the Column of Theodosius and the base of the Column of Arcadius is not off Beyazit Square but some considerable distance away on Haseki Kadin Sokagi. It is most likely that they were built into the foundations because they were lying about in the area when the baths were constructed, not that they were brought half-way across town for the purpose. This is supported by the discovery of similar stones nearby in 1973 which had not been used in the construction.

[Renatus]

A further comment. The Suppliant Soldiers do not appear in either the Freshfield drawings of the Arcadius Column or Menestrier's drawing of the reliefs on the Theodosius Column. However, while the Freshfield drawing shows both the column and the base, Menestrier does not illustrate the base. The photograph of the Suppliant Soldiers as exhibited does not show any appreciable curvature and I therefore suspect that the relief comes from the base of the Theodosius Column.

[Renatus]

Another nail in the coffin of the theory that the reliefs built into the foundations of the Beyazit Hamam came from the Column of Arcadius. The construction of the baths was commissioned by Hurrem Sultan , the wife of Suleiman the Magnificent. She died in 1558. The Theodosius Column apparently collapsed in 1517 and certainly was not still standing in 1550. The Arcadius Column was not demolished until 1715.

[Nathan Ross]

The caption states that it is in the Beyazit Hamam museum. I assume, like you, that part of the restored building has been set aside as a museum.

Looks like it. I wonder what else they might have in there?

The Arcadius Column was not demolished until 1715.

Seems pretty conclusive...

(incidentally, we seem to have veered off the original topic of the Aemilianus inscription -  I wonder if a helpful moderator could split the thread at post #12 (Mark's one, with the picture) under a new title? ''Supplicant Soldiers' Relief from Istanbul' maybe? - suppliant and supplicant seem to be synonyms, so either word would do...)

[ValentinianVictrix]

The only reason I stated that a large number of historians equate the fragments with the Column of Arcadius is the fact there were reliefs of ships on that column, and the foundations of the Hamami still have some fragment of ships as shown in my photographs. There is no evidence that Theodosius fought a naval battle against the Goths as far as I am aware but we know Gainus and his Goths suffered a Naval defeat against the Romans. Hence this is why the fragments are believed to come from the Arcadius column and not the Theodosian one.