Trajan\'s Column

[Tarbicus]

Guttmann Niedermoermter!....

...which doesn't come from an archaeological context and still makes Coulston and me mutter 'dodgy' in our cups.

http://www.orlyowl.com/upload/files/kid_surprised.jpg

Just tie a thong aound the base of the crest to hold the hair down and it doesn't fly around in your face! Like this Jim..
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... oolus1.jpg

But how would that stop an AG800 style ring flopping about?

[Caballo]

"Guttmann Niedermoermter!....

...which doesn't come from an archaeological context and still makes Coulston and me mutter 'dodgy' in our cups."

Is that because it is a bit TOO perfect? Btw, where is it now? I saw it at Christies pre-auction, but suspect that it may not see light outside a private collection again....

[Graham Sumner]

Jim wrote:

Bear in mind that almost every helmet on the columns has a ring, but none of the ones on the Adamklissi Monument which clearly shows soldiers compatible with the archaeological record.

That would mean then that the lorica segmentata was not worn in the Dacian wars either as the Adamklissi shows only mail and scale armour (and the odd plate armguard). Those artists on Trajan's column must have been high on something else as well as scaffolds!

Graham.

[Tarbicus]

Jim wrote:

Bear in mind that almost every helmet on the columns has a ring, but none of the ones on the Adamklissi Monument which clearly shows soldiers compatible with the archaeological record.

That would mean then that the lorica segmentata was not worn in the Dacian wars either as the Adamklissi shows only mail and scale armour. Those artists on Trajan's column must have been high on something else as well as scaffolds!

Graham.

Ah, but segs are in the archaeological record, actually dug up from the ground and contemporary. Not the same, Monsieur Sumner

[Dan Diffendale]

Just for some comparanda of crest-rings also used to hang helmets, namely pilos-type shown on Apulian pottery and dating 340-320 BCE, and one example without provenance:




http://www.freewebtown.com/italica/ital ... cal05c.jpg

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

Graham, brilliant!!

how many loose rings have been found in a military context? since Romans lost almost everything......

and think about the possibility.... in the crest holder, when the crest is not there... they could have stuck two pins or one with a ring attached... and one in case of the coolus/montefortino.........

well???????

:lol: :lol: :lol:

M.VIB.M.

[Martin Wallgren]

Another reflection on the Aux. on both Trajans and Marcus Aurelius column. The tunics (and Hamatas) seems small and tightfitting as do the pants. Is there any thought from you guys on that. Should we think of this too as artistic interpretations or is there any other pictures or archelogical evidence for a mor slim look than the rather wide and large tunics of the legionaries. On MA the artist is quite consistent on depicting guys in Segmentata with longer tunics and the T-shirt shaped hamatas of the cavallery and "Light" infantry with short sleeved tunics.

What do you think?

[Peroni]

But how would that stop an AG800 style ring flopping about?

You're right! it probably wouldn't :?

[Matthew]

Another reflection on the Aux. on both Trajans and Marcus Aurelius column. The tunics (and Hamatas) seems small and tightfitting as do the pants. Is there any thought from you guys on that. Should we think of this too as artistic interpretations or is there any other pictures or archelogical evidence for a mor slim look than the rather wide and large tunics of the legionaries. On MA the artist is quite consistent on depicting guys in Segmentata with longer tunics and the T-shirt shaped hamatas of the cavallery and "Light" infantry with short sleeved tunics.

What do you think?

Tarbicus started a thread about this a couple of months ago. I think it must be artistic convention, a combination of the aesthetic of the heroic nude and the reality of body armour.

With regard to realistic presentation, its probably worth mentioning that the fully Mailed Scythian Horse depicted on the column also look quite odd, almost as if depicted by hearsay.

Alternatively, maybe whatever was worn underneath was somehow sculpted to resemble a muscled cuirass?!

Matthew James Stanham

[Martin Wallgren]

Just for the sake of playing the Devils Advocate here, why! The length of the tunic dont have to be longer if the Hamata is made to protect the torso. Could it have to do with riding in some way? Shorter tunics don´t get in the way of your legs on a horseback?

Why should the Aux. be portraied in a more heroic, nude way than the Leg. ?

I could imagine it be practical to have shorter tunics if you where a trooper equipped for fast moving light infantry jobs, on and of horseback, flanking, scirmishing(sp?) and other such missions.

Is there any contradictionary pictures of Auxilia that shows something other?

[Tarbicus]

The column is a story that has to be told clearly to a general populace entirely visually. Perhaps the main concern for the sculptors was making sure that auxilia could be recognised with no room for confusion, and therefore the femenalia are emphasised in a way that there can be no mistake that they are not citizens? Where we see legionaries wearing femenalia they seem to be shown also wearing a traditional tunic.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

The column is a story that has to be told clearly to a general populace entirely visually

so how do you explain the fact that parts of the story have always been totally ILLEGIBLE for the general public, simply because they were too high up?


M.VIB.M.

[Tarbicus]

Okay, how's this instead:

The column is a story that has to be told clearly entirely visually.

Better?

So, does that change the substance of the rest?

Perhaps the main concern for the sculptors was making sure that auxilia could be recognised with no room for confusion, and therefore the femenalia are emphasised in a way that there can be no mistake that they are not citizens? Where we see legionaries wearing femenalia they seem to be shown also wearing a traditional tunic.

[Tarbicus]

Actually, you've raised a good point. The likelihood is that the external carvings are just decoration that didn't really mean much at all, so long as the story of the campaign was adhered to. The most important aspect of the column was the viewing gallery at the very top, accessible from the internal spiral staircase, which showed the forum and Trajan's Markets.

So, can we deduce that what's carved on the column is irrelevant to any accurate portrayal at all of soldiers as it simply didn't matter? Can we, quite frankly, completely throw out any use of the column as having any vestige of accuracy in its depiction of soldiers and their equipment, and anyone seeking to use it as a military reference needs to give up and find something more useful to do, like travel to Romania?

Compare this with the Adamklissi monument which is viewable from the ground, and the huge difference in the depictions of soldiers there.

[MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS]

If you look closely, the legionaries/auxilia almost all have something on top of their helmets which might have been a ring shape...

so also on the adamklissi monument!

M.VIB.M.