catapult

[Caius Fabius]

Greek and Roman Artillery 399 Bc-Ad 363 (New Vanguard, 89),<br>
by Duncan B. Campbell, Brian Delf, another Osprey beginners book. Nice pictures, but are they that accurate? <p>"Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, </p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Not totally (who knows how did ancient artillery look like? ), but more than those that can even now be seen on average books.<br>
Maybe new interpretations of available evidence might look striking when compared to the standard image of Ancient artillery that we're used to see since it was developed nearly one century ago... but probably the machines portraited on that Osprey are closer to the real apearance of ancient machines thna any other ones, up till now.<br>
I'd advice to read that book to anybody interested on having a first approach to the subject.<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[D B Campbell]

Greetings, Aitor.<br>
It seems I picked an interesting time to revisit RAT!<br>
I hope you will not be too hard on me when you review my little Artillery book for <em>Gladius</em>. At least I know you will not dismiss it as "another Osprey beginners' book"!<br>
<br>
Only joking, of course, but I wonder why your Moderator would question the accuracy of the pictures? Half of them are photos of original artefacts! <p></p><i></i>

[Caius Fabius]

I did not question the accuracy as "a moderator". Moderators do not do that on this forum. Heaven forbid! I merely questioned whether the engines all looked like the pictures as an owner and reader of over 300 Osprey books, owner of several other works on ancient artillery, and owner of three different "ancient engines". I am well aware that some Osprey artists sometimes have added or subtracted important things from pictures, just to have a better picture, even when we had photographs of the original items! I would not be surprised to find pictorial differences in a book on ancient artillery, especially when so many of the other books on the subject are not in total agreement.<br>
Any author will at first be horrified to find many people will question their research here on Roman Army Talk, in a usually friendly way, (or sometimes not so friendly, see some reviews of some other books). Some of these people have years of study in the same field, or have constructed working catapults, like Aitor, with great attention to detail, some others just read a lot, and spend way too much time in museums. I keep trying to get the U.S. Army Field Artillery Association to invite ancient torsion weapons to our black powder historical artillery shoots! Maybe someday....<br>
<br>
<br>
For reference we are discussing this book...<br>
<br>
<br>
Greek and Roman Artillery: 399 BC-AD 363<br>
<br>
Amazon tells me I have 3 copies of this one, but I only found two in my library. Like I said, it is a good beginner book, but you'll need a lot more information to actually make and use your own period artillery, as several of us have found in our quest for the perfect Roman artillery piece.... <p>"Just before class started, I looked in the big book where all the world's history is written, and it said...." Neil J. Hackett, PhD ancient history, professor OSU, </p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=caiusfabius>Caius Fabius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ROMANISROMANORVM/files/C%20Fabius%201988b.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 2/11/05 2:07 am<br></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Hi Duncan,<br>
Unfortunately, I couldn't continue with your reviews for 'Gladius' as my process of competitive examination for the public service started.<br>
I don't know if they commissioned somebody else for the task at 'Gladius' or if they'll be willing to retake the idea when I'll become again free (for good or for bad...), probably after Easter. I'll keep you informed...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

In Mr. Campbell's book, he describes how springs were tightened using a windlass on another device so that the diameter of the rope was reduced 1/3 and they produced the right musical tone. How can we accomplish this? Has anyone recently? Aitor? <p></p><i></i>

[D B Campbell]

As you know, modern reconstructions of torsion-springs commonly use man-made fibre or, at best, horsehair rope.<br>
It is clear that sinew (or, more accurately, ligament) gave an infinitely better performance, and more so when it was pre-stressed. (This is obviously a peculiarity of the material, with which the ancients were quite familiar.)<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, no-one has managed to perform adequate tests on this, partly owing to the difficulties in manufacturing ligament rope. (No ancient source describes how to make the rope; so, although one or two experimenters have made sinew cord, we cannot be sure that the result was what the ancients would have used.)<br>
[I have never seen a scientific report on sinew cord -- maybe you can provide more information on this aspect, Aitor?]<br>
<br>
In answer to John's question, I do not believe that there is anything to be gained by pre-stretching horsehair in the way that Heron, Philon and Vitruvius describe. Apart from anything else, it is probably impossible to stretch a horsehair rope until it loses a third of its diameter (although I am willing to be proved wrong on this!) And man-made fibres are even less conducive to this kind of treatment. <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Finding horsehair rope of the proper diameter (1 1/2 inches for a 4 span) presents a problem in and of itself. The largest I have been able to find is 3/4 inch diameter. A really large catapult would require rope many inches thick.<br>
<br>
How did the ancients do it? Particularly with animal sinew? Does anyone know of anything at all constructed of animal sinew that large?<br>
<br>
What kind of sinew did they use? I know horse muscle gets used in constructing really expensive shoes and is used because of its hardness and resiliency. This exhausts my knowledge. Does anyone else know some stuff? <p></p><i></i>

[Aluscladiusmaximus]

Herron said to use the neck sinew from an ox to make the rope he says don't use the sinews from pigs. That might have been because he was Jewish.<br>
<br>
For those who havn't done the maths if you stretch a rope to 2/3rds its diameter you have doubled its length.<br>
<br>
From what I have seen Sinew rope is very stretchy almost like rubber. On the program where they built the big Ballista they actually tested a sample to determine its properties before they used nylon rope like everybody else.<br>
I once tried stringing my manuballista with rubber and it didn't give enough power even with every strand pre streched. I found with the manuballista Polyester rope was best as it is stiffer than nylon and on the manuballista the rope bundles are long for their Diameter about 1 1/2 thins as long as a normal catapulta<br>
<br>
Aulus Cladius Maximus <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Where have you seen sinew rope?<br>
<br>
What does polypropelene rope resemble, if anything?<br>
<br>
Does anyone have any idea how many oxen it would take to make the springs on any captapult of any size? <p></p><i></i>

[Caius Fabius]

hmm, usually we behead the cattle after we slaughter them, I wonder if there is some way to save the sinew? Which attachment points would be involved? Are we talking about the sinew next to the muscles along the spine? I might be able to get sinew the next time I slaughter one of the longhorns.....<br>
<br>
<p>"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." Herbert Spencer</p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Today, I received a shipment of horsehair rope. Eighty feet was received. It is a good 20mm in diameter and black in color. I will be re-springing "Baca" here with it. Any of you artillery experts have any advice? <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/JohnMcDermott/DSC00320.jpg" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=johnmmcdermott>JOHN M MCDERMOTT</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://photobucket.com/albums/v488/JohnMcDermott/th_DSC00144.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 3/15/05 5:46 pm<br></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Keep an eye on the way your catapult is stringed now. The stringing is done by John Anstee and he had a wide experience doing it!<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[jkaler48]

Ave All;
I have DSC Armory in India looking for a source for Sinew rope.