catapult

[John M McDermott]

Legion X F, Houston, Texas, just acquired a 4-span scorpion. We have yet to test fire it. I am curious if there are other owners of Roman artillery here in the US.<br>
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John <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Legion VI Victrix in Los Angeles is just finishing their new ballista, which will be filmed at the end of this month on a History Channel show called Mail Call. I've always thought the Scorpion was a nifty piece of gear myself... do you have any pictures of yours? We're looking at building that one next<br>
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Let us know how your test fire goes. Well be posting an MPEG of ours on the legion's website when it goes to film.<br>
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All the best,<br>
G. Darius Severus<br>
<span style="color:orange;font-family:georgia;font-size:medium;">Legio VI Victrix</span><br>
www.legionsix.org <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

Ave,<br>
I am in the midst of building a small stone thrower, about the size of a scorpion. Everything is nearly finished except the modioli, which I'm having a hard time finding materials or resources for. I'd like bronze ones, but it looks as though I may have to fabricate them myself from iron. Anyway, I'm in Richland, Georgia, USA. I've been fascinated by Roman artillery for a very long time, and actually prefer it over other means of combat...I probably will eventually leave the infantry to do a full-time artillery portrayal someday. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/14/05 4:02 am<br></i>

[John M McDermott]

Naturally, I'll have some pictures soon. I acquired it from a fellow Roman in the UK. I recently uncrated it. It did not come with a stand, so I've had one built. It shoots 500 meters, so I'm going to need more room than my backyard.<br>
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One fear is that it will break. I understand they do frequently and that one is advised to wear a lorica segmentata when shooting one. How does you'alls experience run?<br>
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John <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Here is a nice one<br>
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www.trebuchet.com/story.p...sible.html <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

Lucius,<br>
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If you are looking for artillery componants give Len Morgan a call. These days he is kept very busy making swords and scabbards but as an artillery enthusiast I'm sure he would be keen to start producing catapult parts again.<br>
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Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

Permit me to stir the pot a little more. Some sources (whose names we shall not mention) claim that the springs were always made of horse hair or sinew. Having tested my scorpion, I just don't see how these two substances would hold up.<br>
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Mine is sprung with nylon rope, a non-existent substance in Roman times. What rope did they use? Hemp? What are the comparisons? Anybody know?<br>
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John <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Oh, please, John!<br>
Erwin Schramm had all his (many) reconstructed torsion artillery machines armed with horsehair rope during the first quarter of the XXth century and, today, Alan Wilkins and myself had done the same (albeit to a much limited level, because horsehair rope is expensive, unless you spend a lot of hours making it by yourself, like Alan's wife...) Sinew rope isn't a myth. Digby stevenson has armed a catapult with it. Digby has made the sinew rope by himself. I've found an excellent source for sinew rope here but, compared to it, horsehair rope is very cheap... Maybe in a future, when I finish the trials with horsehair rope, I'll dare to order sinew rope...<br>
Horsehair abd sinew are animal fibers and they can be spun to thread and then twisted or plaited to make cord. Vegetal fibers like hemp have nothing to do against animal ones, they stretch badly and recover very slowly or never. I've never seen anything like sinew rope, even if horsehair rope is an excellent stuf for catapult springs!<br>
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Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

I have heard of Dr. Schramm. However, I understand only the smaller machines survive. Is there operational today a machine as large or larger than a 4-span that uses horse-hair or animal sinew? Who has it and where might we reach them for data? What tests show hemp rope to be inferior to anything else? <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

I'm rather busy these days and was planning to disappear from RAT for a month or so, when the magic word 'catapult' appeared. In different conditions, I'd be really happy to have any long (the longer, the better) chat on catapults...<br>
If I recall well, the bigger ones of Schramm's reconstructions were destroyed during SWW (a ballista and a four span? catapult) and now his surviving reconstruction of the Ampurias 3 span at the Saalburg Museum is the biggest machine armed with horsehair. As late as the seventies or eighties it was still operative, with the original springs!<br>
Alan Wilkkins' and Digby Stevenson's machines have springs in the range of 4-5 cm thick.<br>
What I think of hemp, horsehair and sinew is based on my own experiments. I haven't been able to test sinew springs for myself but I ordered a length of sinew cord to make a new 'bowstring' for my cheiroballistra and I've noticed that 'cord against cord' it performs better than horsehair.<br>
As for hemp, there is only a vague reference on ancient sources about its possible use in artillery. As I told you, vegetal fibers are no match in elasticity to animal ones. Anyway, if you use 'thick' springs (i.e. from a 3 span -7 cm thick- onwards- and mainly for display purposes (shooting to a range of 150 m or so), hemp or almost any other rope material will perform well. But if you want to experiment or push the machine and springs to their limits, forget hemp and turn to modern materials (polipropylene, nylon, etc) or rob a bank and order horsehair rope... My two cents.<br>
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Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[John M McDermott]

I have found a few sights where one can buy horsehair. One sight even showed rope made of horsehair, but it was not for sale. Probably, somewhere, someone actually makes it and sells it.<br>
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I would like to know of your source for animal sinew. Is it horse muscle, which I know to be very strong?<br>
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I am still having trouble with the presumption that hemp is an inferior product. I would like to know if anyone did a scientific test. <p></p><i></i>

[Aluscladiusmaximus]

They did a program on the TV here in England where they built a Large Balista I think it was a 18" balista ( 4 span is 4")<br>
They tested various ropes on a Laboratory force/extension machine to record their properties. Sinew rope is elastic in the same way rubber is. The animal ropes need to be oiled but are truly elastic, hemp is stretchy but does not return the energy you put into it. Sinew rope was stretched to twice its length using winches when it was fitted to a piece of artillery, so even at rest it was storing a lot of energy. Modern artillery pieces strung with nylon only have the rope pulled tight when they are strung. Nylon is also not elastic as it does stretch but it is the best modern compromise. If you string your artillery piece with sinew rope you will need to remove it and let it relax in baths of oil every month or so.<br>
May I ask where you bought your 4 span catapulta.<br>
I built one of those once because the leader of my group had to have a catapulta larger than the one the Ermine street guard had. As far as I am aware there is no evidence for a 4" catapulta so I was unhappy about the size but I wanted to build one so much I went ahead. My one had side ratchets rather than a circular one on the windlass.<br>
If you read Marstons translations of the old Roman artillery manuals you will see that Sinew was the first choice and woman/horse hair was second best. Hemp rope is not even mentioned. I think I read in Payne-Gallways book that if you use hemp rope you have to shoot the piece quickly as if the rope is held under tension it stretches and can tear. He used hemp rope on his artillery pieces. <p></p><i></i>

[Lucius Aurelius Metellus]

This is just my "two cents", so you can take it for what it is worth, but my personal recommendation would be not to use hemp rope for your springs. It might look a bit more "authentic" than nylon, but will definitely not perform as well, due to its non-elastic nature. If I were you, and had gone to all the trouble to aquire an authentic, functioning replica of one of these engines, I would use a perhaps dark or "natural" colored nylon rope so that the machine would function at its best. I think you would be "selling yourself short" to put hemp on it. To me, the only better alternative than the nylon would be as Aitor suggested, to spend the money and buy a sinew rope. Of course, I am not implying that hemp won't work, just that it won't work anywhere near as well.<br>
I am building a stone thrower of "scorpion" size, and I intend to use nylon springs on mine. The rope is a black/charcoal grey color, so one would have to look very closely to realize that it is nylon. <p>Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda Brittanica</p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/20/05 3:55 pm<br></i>

[John M McDermott]

A Brit by the name of John, whose last name I forget, made it. I am told he is deceased.<br>
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Horsehair rope is intriguing, but does not appear to be available in bulk. It is almost an "artistic" thing. You can buy horsehair in bulk, but not in rope form. You have to weave it yourself into rope. True horsehair rope is made from mane hair. I agree with all of you that it is remarkable in its qualities for catapult springs.<br>
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If anyone knows where horsehair rope is available in bulk. I would like to know.<br>
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I hope we can keep this discussion going, because more knowledge keeps coming out of the woodwork.<br>
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John <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

So you have one of the catapults made by my late friend John Anstee? You're lucky (me too) John's catapults are unorthodox in terms of design but they work very well. Your spring ropes are polipropylene, then.<br>
What is the name of your catapult? now I have 'Necator' and 'Carnifex' with me...<br>
The source for hosehair rope is Norway, John got mine for me though a British rope dealer but, alas, I'm afraid that the connection has gone away with him!<br>
I'm sorry to be forced to leave this discussion until spring<br>
Aitor<br>
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PS, my sinew rope comes from horses' legs, though wild deer would be ideal. Digby told me tha the is trying to get deer sinew... <p></p><i></i>