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Lucius Aurelius Metellus · 01-20-2005, 08:06 PM

Hi John, 
I wish I knew of a place to recommend to you to buy horsehair rope so I could help you, but unfortunately, I don't know of any. I did find this link, though, if you have the patience to make it yourself: 
[url=http://www.horsehairart.com/Artists/GadwaySchneider/GadwaySchneider.htm" target="top]www.horsehairart.com/Artists/GadwaySchneider/GadwaySchneider.htm[/url] 
The site has an inexpensive little book that teaches how to make the rope. 
I hope that will help you, at least a little bit... 
Lucius Aurelius Metellus, draconarius, Secunda BrittanicaEdited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=luciusaureliusmetellus@romanarmytalk>Lucius Aurelius Metellus</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/Lucius68/Lucius.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 1/20/05 9:08 pm

John M McDermott · 01-21-2005, 12:21 AM

The bolts have "Baca" written on them. 
 
I found one reference to horsehair rope being made in Mexico, but no hits. 
 
John

Daniel S Peterson · 01-24-2005, 01:05 AM

As far as other Roman catapults in the U.S., the LEG XIIII Cremona type scorpion pictured in my book now resides in a Kentucky log cabin. Its first U.S. showing was at the Parthenon event and more recently used in a History Channel program as fire fighting gear of the Vigiles, shooting grappling hooks to pull down burning timbers. This catapult originally had horsehair springs, which have deteriorated in over 12 years of use, and now has rope. 
 
If a local oak tobacco barn is taken down soon, I intend to make a ballista, possibly based on Hatra since we have the most evidence for this one. 
 
Yes, Schramm's largest catapults, the ballista and larger onager were destroyed during WWII while being renovated in the Krupp factory. I was able to "play" with some of the smaller ones, which are still on display at the Saalburg fort and museum near Frankfurt. 
 
The biggest authentic Roman ballista I am aware of was the one made by the German Opladen Cohort. I believe it always had cotton or nylon rope springs, though other than that, a very commendable job. 
 
The cheapest source of horsehair for catapult springs in the U.S would be crossing over to Mexico and buying horsehair lariats there. 
 
Dan

**Robert Vermaat** · 01-24-2005, 07:27 AM

I'm after a source of horse hair rope in The Netherlands. I'll let you know if I'm successful. Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]

Carlton Bach · 01-24-2005, 12:08 PM

...unsuccessfully. However, they put down funding for building a reconstruction of a huge stone-throwing catapult and test-fire it. Unfortunately, I don't think they'll fund the second attempt, though it might actually work better this time. 
 
www.bbcworld.com/content/...ageid=2622 
 
Volker

Aluscladiusmaximus · 01-24-2005, 02:01 PM

When I saw a picture of the Ballista in the Radio Times I was quite excited until I looked closer and saw that the rope bundles were too small and I knew then it would not work properly. The Roman engineers didn't tell you to make the "washers" a certain size so you had plenty of room for the ropes they knew that you had to pack as much rope in as you could. The BBC's team used a rope bundle about half the diameter of the required size. 
It is a pity they didn't get a roman artillery expert who had some experience of making them rather than an academic who's only experience is reading the texts and his only design for an artillery piece is almost completely wrong. The expert knew nothing about making artillery as he just did the drawings and gave them to Len Morgans who made them. Lens workmanship is very good and his 3 span catapultas are very good machines. 
 
Aulus Cladius Maxamus

01-24-2005, 02:16 PM

They also set the angle of elevation too high, and made the braces that stop the spring-frame collapsing back on to the stock too short, so that the arms couldn't be drawn all the way back. Also the rope they used for the springs didn't return to shape properly, and the catapult they were looking at for ideas was a bolt-shooter rather than a stone thrower 
 
As I understand it, their artillery expert (Alan Wilkins) did know what he was talking about, but the modern engineers decided that they knew better and messed it up as a result. Homo Homini Lupus Every Man is a Wolf to Another ManEdited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=carusandiumae@romanarmytalk>Carus Andiumae</A> at: 1/25/05 12:20 pm

**Robert Vermaat** · 01-24-2005, 06:18 PM

I watched the episode last saturday for the second time and agin I wondered about the lack of any engineer with experience in reconstructing Roman artillery. This becomes obvious at least at the end, when the bulders realise they can't load the machine proberly because the support beams are in the way of the trigger! It was clear far before that point, however, because the team just could not decide on a mechanism how to load the stone! Not only that, the upper part of the machine had to be hoisted on the lower part by a modern crane, because the 'original' A-frames cracked. 
I also wondered about their apparent joy over the end result, even though the darned thing only managed to shoot its load a mere 100 feet (or was it metres?) away, while being terminally damaged after just the second shot! One wonders why they did not start with a smaller one.. 
<img src="http://shopping.discovery.com/DiscoveryStore/images/products/largenew/684068_lg.jpg" style="border:0;"/> 
 
Interestingly, just a week or so before that show, there was a show about a French team building a human-powered medieval crane for hoisting stone on to a cathedral. I noticed some similarities. There was an ugly rivalry between the engineer and the artisans, who completely ignored him. I recall they built it twice as heavy as he would have allowed it to be. Didn't catch the end though. Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 1/24/05 7:37 pm

John M McDermott · 01-24-2005, 08:08 PM

Horsehair lariats are made in Colorado also. But we are talking small diameter ropes. They are expensive. Also, they are made of mane hair. Why? I haven't a clue. Why isn't tail hair just as good? You can buy tail hair in bulk. 
 
Perhaps there is a rope maker that can be worked with. There just doesn't seem to be a commercial use for horsehair rope. 
 
However, based on what I am hearing, it is ideal for catapult springs.

Crispvs · 01-24-2005, 10:36 PM

As I understand it, the director (as usual) is almost certainly the one at fault. As Carus says, Alan Wilkins, as an expert on Roman artillery, was called in to help with the reconstruction. However, it seems to be fashionable for the directors of these programmes to want to show three or four 'experts' arguing and then deciding on a compromise, to give some 'dramatic tension' to what should be a straight up and down documentary. Thus it was that Alan had to be filmed arguing with a couple of half educated nincompoops about the finer points of ancient artillery engineering and then allow the director or one of his staff to invent a design that was a compromise between all of the 'points' raised in the televised argument. As far as I know Alan found it understandably very frustrating and no-one I know was surprised to hear that it had not been a success. There was a similar situation a couple of years ago when they made a 'documentary' about the building of a reconstruction of a Roman bridge, supposedly based on Caesar's description of his bridge accross the Rhine. There again, the 'experts' argued on and a compromise was come to which, like the catapult, ended up as a collection of splintered timbers. So much for serious documentaries! 
 
Crispvs

FlaviusCrispus · 01-25-2005, 02:18 AM

Avete, comilitones! 
 
Leg VI VPF (California) has just finished its big, beautiful new cheiroballista, and will be test firing it this week, weather permitting. Faced with a time restriction, we did resort to the expedient of nylon rope for the two torsion bundles, but we plan to retrofit it with horsehair rope when we can buy or make a sufficient quantity. 
 
The cheiroballista (also called a carrobalista) was the most advanced form of bolt-thrower developed by the Romans. It is simply a marvel of technology, any way you look at it. Ours is a nine-span, the dimensions taken from the frame cross-piece found at Orsova; theoretically, it should be able to throw a bolt 600 or so yards. We'll see. 
 
Most of the credit for this machine belongs to our centurio, Gaius Manlius Magnus (Caius Man), who whipped up the blueprints and fabricated most of the components in astonishingly good time. Many other members of Leg VI put in long hours on the project as well, under his guidance. Finally, we owe a debt of gratitude to Britain's Leg XIIII RMRS (the blue tunic guys), particularly Alan Wilkins, artillery maker extroardinaire, and Julian Dendy, who gave me a copy of Alan's excellent book when I was over there last April. That's what provided the spark of inspiration, and the rest is history. 
 
Stay tuned-- we'll be posting photos and a full description of our cheiroballista soon enough. You'll also be able to watch the results on "Mail Call" at some point in the near future. 
 
T. Flavius Crispus 
Leg VI VPF 
CA, USA 
 
T. Flavius Cripus

**Robert Vermaat** · 01-25-2005, 08:39 AM

Erm..just nitpicking, but.. 
Is a cheiroballistRa (not cheiroballista) the Greek word for manuballista? 
I'm not sure what the Greek word for carroballista is, though Valete, 
Valerius/Robert 
[url=http://www.fectio.org.uk/" target="top]fectienses seniores[/url]Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=vortigernstudies>Vortigern Studies</A> at: 1/25/05 9:40 am

Carlton Bach · 01-25-2005, 09:28 AM

I think the whole point to the series is that they build stuff nobody thinks they can build. Failure is an acceptable outcome, but not being spectacular isn't. That's why they opted for the biggest catapult they could find. 
 
But it did look woefully underpowered.

Aluscladiusmaximus · 01-25-2005, 11:01 AM

The point of the series is to build stuff that the ancients actually built so if they could build them 2-3000 years ago we should be able to build them now. 
 
As an academic I would not fault Alan Wilkins but as a person who can make artillery he is not very good. I have met him and discussed artillery so this is not just prejudice. 
On the program he makes some very valid points about how the engineers should stick to the texts because if they don't they are just making a Ballista in the roman style rather than a Roman Ballista. What he didn't do is offer any engineering solutions to the problems they had with construction and didn't stop them doing stupid things like putting the braces too far forward. Someone who has actually built roman artillery them self would have ended up with a working machine. 
 
Looking at the picture posted I would say that actually the bundles are 1/3 the size needed not 1/2 as I suggested before. 
Aulus Cladius Maximus

01-25-2005, 11:24 AM

You have to wonder about the title of the series - 'Building the Impossible'. If it's impossible, why are you trying to build it? 
 
They then wonder if the Romans could really have built such an engine, to which one can only reply "Actually, they made the whole thing up and then put fake shot at siege sites to confuse later historians and archaeologists... obviously." Homo Homini Lupus Every Man is a Wolf to Another Man

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